Episode Summary

In today’s episode, we tackle a significant question: Is Homeownership Still Part of the American Dream? It’s a complex topic, influenced by changing economic landscapes, psychological factors, and the ever-evolving housing market. We’ll explore the benefits and challenges of homeownership, discuss current market conditions, and offer practical advice for those considering whether to own real estate as part of their financial journey. Tune in as we help you understand whether homeownership should still be a dream you aspire to—or if there are other paths to financial success worth considering.

What You’ll Learn in this Episode:

• The evolution of homeownership as part of the American Dream
• Why older generations have benefited more from the housing market
• The impact high-interest rates are having on the housing market
• How supply and demand are sharping the housing market
• Discussing the question of whether you should buy or rent
• The current economic impact that is occurring across multiple industries because of the shift in the housing market
• How to balance a home down payment with your other financial goals
• Who you should consider having on your team if you are interested in buying a home and the impact a good team can have
• A few things to think about when looking at a house as a long-term investment
• Why it’s important to look to the future when thinking about becoming a potential homeowner

Stay Connected:

• Connect with Mary Beth on Twitter, Instagram, and on LinkedIn
• Connect with Neela on Twitter, Instagram, and on LinkedIn
• Join the Abacus community by connecting with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and on LinkedIn

Transcript of the Episode

Mary Beth [00:00:14]:

Hey there. Welcome to the If Money Were Easy podcast, the show where we teach you how to expand what’s possible with your money. Where are your hosts, Mary Beth Storjohann 

Neela [00:00:24]:

and Neela Hummel, 

Mary Beth [00:00:25]:

certified financial planners and co CEO’s of Abacus Wealth Partners. Today on the show, we are talking about, is home ownership still a part of the American dream? Is it Nee, is it a part of the American dream? 

Neela [00:00:41]:

I feel like we can just answer everything with. It depends. It depends. But it’s a good way for us to dive into what the heck is going on with the housing market, how that affects people, both psychologically and what are the economics that are making this either possible or impossible for folks who really do want to own their slice of the American dream, which oftentimes becomes a piece of real estate. 

Mary Beth [00:01:04]:

Right. What are the benefits of owning real estate? So some people want the homeownership American dream. Then there’s folks like my grandma’s generation, right? 

Neela [00:01:13]:

Yeah. 

Mary Beth [00:01:13]:

Multiple properties, like real estate is the only way to go. What are the benefits people are seeing in real estate? What made it a part of the American dream in the first place? 

Neela [00:01:21]:

We do like to own things in this country. 

Mary Beth [00:01:24]:

And by owning things, you mean like a tangible asset? 

Neela [00:01:26]:

Tangible asset. And I think, you know, to your point, we often see that with older generations, that real estate is something like very physical, that people can touch and see. And the other thing is that being able to be in control of one’s own destiny, if you own your own home, you can do whatever you want to it. There’s a stability piece to it. You’re invested in that home, you’re invested in that community. It’s a way for you to put down roots and I think create a sense of belonging. 

Mary Beth [00:01:52]:

Right. Okay. So that’s where it came from. That’s where it manifested way back when. For homeownership. And where we are today, though, I mean, the landscape has changed. I mean, it was changing as you and I were growing up, even though we’re elder millennials. But, I mean, the landscape has been changing this whole time in terms of affordability, especially for our generation and then the generation that’s up and coming now as well. And so is home ownership still a part of the American dream for our generation, and is it possible? 

Neela [00:02:23]:

I think it continues to be a part of the dream. I think a lot of people still want it. Not everybody, but a lot of people still want it. There’s personal reasons, again, from a stability standpoint, being in control. People also see it as a strong investment. I think we would say that people often overestimate the benefit of a private home from an investment standpoint. It is one asset class, it’s super concentrated. One of the benefits of buying your home is that most people end up doing it with leverage, which makes the return seem better, meaning you’re taking on debt to buy it, and so your rate of return over time tends to be higher because it’s technically a little riskier.

Mary Beth [00:03:03]:

Right. 

Neela [00:03:03]:

I think it’s an interesting thing and that people want it, but it’s increasingly out of reach. And, you know, we can talk about how Gen X and the boomer generation really got a lot of the benefit, I think, of the housing market. There was more supply, there was cheaper money, and they were able to get into a lot more real estate versus millennials and Gen Z, because now what we’re looking at is that with the shoot up in interest rates, it’s getting harder and harder to afford it, because again, if you’re buying a home with debt on it, it’s more expensive, the higher interest rates are. 

Mary Beth [00:03:40]:

So talk a little bit about what does the landscape look like today for rates and if one is looking to buy a home. 

Neela [00:03:45]:

Yeah, so I think talking to different real estate agents, talking to different lenders, the housing market is frozen right now because two thirds of existing mortgages have interest rates below 4%. Now, if you have a mortgage with an interest rate under 4%, the idea of switching homes, you cannot take your mortgage with you. So you would need to get a new loan at a higher interest rate. Call it somewhere between six and a half and a seven and a half percent, which, depending on how much you’re borrowing, can send your monthly costs up by thousands of dollars. So what we’re seeing now is you would normally see more activity in people like selling primary, you know, starter homes or older generations sizing down. They’re not moving because they’re in these really cheap mortgages. That makes going to a different home more expensive. And so the supply issue continues in the real estate market, and that is one of the things that’s pushing prices up, because there’s just not enough supply. And then you also have the fact that interest rates are high, and so it’s just increasingly unaffordable for many people. 

Mary Beth [00:04:53]:

So said another way, if I wanted to take my home in San Diego, and I wanted to move to LA, for example, even if  won’t.

Neela [00:05:02]:

Come to the dark side with us. 

Mary Beth [00:05:04]:

I love San Diego. However, if I wanted to take my home in San Diego, I needed to sell it, get rid of my mortgage that is below 4%. Even if I took that same value for the home and just translated that into a home in LA, which I would have much less space, by the way, but dollar for dollar, same price, I would still have, my mortgage was the same, I would still have a higher monthly payment even just for that exchange right there, because I’d be taking my two and three quarters interest rate and then I would be locking in six and a half to seven and a half. So right off the bat, even if my house was worth the same in LA, I would still have a higher payment. 

Neela [00:05:34]:

Right. 

Mary Beth [00:05:34]:

So one of you have to relocate for a job that’s going to hit you. But then, two, if you’re looking to actually sell your starter home and upgrade into a bigger place than that, dollar for dollar exchange, if you had the same size house, you’re buying a bigger house, spending more money and then your payments going up. 

Neela [00:05:49]:

Right. And then on top of that, right? So not only the fact that interest rates go up, but once you sell your house, one of the things that ends up happening is you get a property tax reassessment at the new contract price. So if you’re sitting on a house that is worth a lot more than you originally paid for it, even if you swapped to a home of the exact same value, your property tax is likely going to go way up. And so then you’ve got a higher monthly mortgage payment plus a higher property tax payment. So your overall carrying cost has now gone up. 

Mary Beth [00:06:19]:

Right. So that’s what’s locking many of us who own homes right now. That is what’s locking us into our homes and keeping us here. We’d rather remodel our existing homes than. 

Neela [00:06:29]:

Right.

Mary Beth [00:06:29]:

Take on the additional debt at the higher interest rate. 

Neela [00:06:32]:

I think it’s also interesting because this has huge trickle down impacts in both the labor economy. You mentioned moving for a job. There are people who are turning down maybe a better fit job because they just don’t want to give up their low mortgage rate. 

Mary Beth [00:06:46]:

Right. We tout our mortgage rates now, right. When we locked them in, when rates were down, we were excited. Maybe that’s just because we’re finance nerds. But talking about your mortgage interest rate then and now, it’s hard. I mean, it’s hard for those that are trying to get into the market. It is a much steeper price. And so for those that have been saving up and saving up and trying to get to that down payment, the price creep for the houses and the interest rates. I mean, some people feel like they’re stuck on a hamster wheel. 

Neela [00:07:12]:

Yeah. 

Mary Beth [00:07:13]:

And trying to time it of when do you get off? Right. When do you jump in? I know that was one of the big things that came up, especially as rates were creeping up. Do I get it now? And people just, just jumped and they’re still in the really outstanding mortgages based on financial plans. And I think the other thing to talk about is not just the mortgage rates and what it’s doing to the housing market. Rents are also out of control, especially in California. I mean, I look at rents out here in San Diego and rents are more expensive than my mortgage. But you expect people to pay the rent. It’s mind boggling sometimes about how folks are making it. But that’s not the topic of this conversation. 

Neela [00:07:54]:

But I mean, I think, you know, going back to what we talked about of like, is it still part of the american dream? Is, I think it is, but it’s feeling increasingly out of reach. And so I think you’re also seeing people continuing to save, but they’re spending more on other experiences. We’ve talked about concert tickets or spending more on travel because they’re not feeling like they’re maybe six to twelve months away from buying a home. It’s feeling like way further away than that. And so people are trying to live their lives in the best way that they can. 

Mary Beth [00:08:25]:

Right. 

Neela [00:08:25]:

But there’s huge economic ramifications with that. There’s whole industries that are designed around the turning of homes. Think about furniture, think about new appliances, all the moving services, all of that that thrive on a somewhat more liquid housing market. And we just don’t have that right now. 

Mary Beth [00:08:45]:

Right. But as you mentioned, those funds are going to other areas in the economy. So it’s not necessarily, money isn’t necessarily being drained. They’re being reallocated to other areas.

Neela [00:08:55]:

And we should say, too, that if you are saving up for a home and it doesn’t feel like the right time, there is good news for savers in that at least in high interest yield savings accounts, you’re getting a decent return. Right. And so you’re actually able to get decent amount of interest if you’re leaving the money for a short to midterm purchase. So there is a little bit of relief there. 

Mary Beth [00:09:17]:

Two questions. First one, do you think that somebody can still be successful if they do not own their home? In terms of financial success, can they still get to retirement? Can they still be financially independent and free if they never own a home? 

Neela [00:09:33]:

Oh, I love this question so much. I’m so glad you asked this question. I think one of the reasons that people think that a home is such a good investment is it’s either the only investment people make or it is the longest term investment they make. So they anchor to the purchase price and then they think about the current value. Even if it’s been 20 years, it feels like it’s a great return. Even if you run the numbers and it’s like 3%, the numbers are huge. So we would say you can be a wealthy renter, you bet, but you need to have the discipline to basically invest the difference. 

Mary Beth [00:10:06]:

Right. 

Neela [00:10:06]:

So think about all the money that you would have spent between your rent and say, a mortgage and property tax, and you invest that, and then all the money that you would have spent on a new roof. Invest that. Anything to replace your washer and dryer. Pretty much the cost of ownership, which most people underestimate. If you’re able to be a disciplined investor and put that money to work, your rate of return in the stock market over time, historically, is better than your rate of return in the private real estate market on an unlevered basis.

Mary Beth [00:10:36]:

Okay, not to challenge you, but going back to my original comment about where rents are at in this country right now, how does an investor do that? 

Neela [00:10:47]:

Yeah, I think being very mindful of what we are accepting, because there are some markets like LA rents aren’t going up quite as much because there’s been more supply coming on. What’s interesting is it’s more highly amenitized, expensive properties that are coming on. But sometimes we have to make tradeoffs. There is that you’re maybe getting a smaller home, keeping that rent number in check. Because I think at the end of the day, we have in our minds how much we should be spending on housing. And if we can keep that really to, you know, under a third of our income, we’re in good shape. The more we spend, and again, the more expensive an area it is, the more that creeps up. But the more you can keep some of the biggest expenses in check. And that might be making some tradeoffs in terms of which location you’re willing to be in. You know, if you’re in a location, can you get rid of a car making some of those tradeoffs so that you feel like you’re still making progress in your economic future. 

Mary Beth [00:11:43]:

Yeah, I would say in addition to that, the tradeoffs are always there. That’s part of any financial plan. I would also say, I mean, we can’t do anything now as elder millennials, knowing what Gen Z is up against, starting your journey as an investor sooner rather than later, right? Because it’s going to be smaller increments that can be saved if rents, interest rates will adjust. But if rents continue to stay at all time highs, or even if they come down a bit, it’s still going to be a stretch. And so I’d say the earlier that you can start to invest your money, compound interest time is on your side. And so I think that is one of the things that, that younger investors have, like those in their twenties, if you haven’t started your Roth IRA, if you haven’t done anything, like just getting started there, can help you from that long term perspective. Because rent in general, I mean, when you’re in your twenties, you likely have roommates, but then when you have a family, if you’re not dual income, if you’re one, income like that does get to be a strain. And so how much do you actually have available at a reasonable amount between all the tradeoffs you have, how do you set aside? And I think the earlier that you start saving and investing, the better if you can’t be a homeowner. 

Neela [00:12:45]:

Yeah, I don’t want to gaslight this situation. Like, the situation is pretty bleak. If you don’t own a home, you are spending a lot of money, on rent. 

Mary Beth [00:12:54]:

You are. 

Neela [00:12:54]:

And you also feel like you have fewer choices. And you are not wrong. Right. The housing market would agree that it is very hard. And when interest rates decide to fall, and a lot of economists say, okay, once they start falling, like below 5%, you’ll start seeing a lot more movement in the supply market. So doing everything you can to get yourself ready for that time and never take on more home than you can afford. 

Mary Beth [00:13:21]:

And that’s the big one. I mean, you and I have probably both seen it happen so many times in terms of people who do take on too much. 

Neela [00:13:26]:

Yeah. 

Mary Beth [00:13:27]:

And not knowing the situation or not having the buffers in place, that if you do lose that job or something does happen. So not taking on more home than you can afford, even though it feels like you should get in, is. Is huge. I mean, that’s a big risk to take, and that’s one that can injure you for quite some time from a financial perspective. My other question was, for those that are still holding out or waiting to get into the market, especially if there’s elder millennials who don’t own homes yet, or they’re trying to upgrade, how do you recommend folks allocate their assets because we talk about you can save, especially for what you need for down payments now. You can save for years and then, yeah, not set aside for retirement, not take advantage of the 401K, Roth Iras, et cetera. How do you recommend that folks divide their savings between down payment, future them, etcetera? 

Neela [00:14:18]:

It probably depends on where you are in your life phase, but I’d say we would always, always be putting something into your 401K, at least up to the company match. Right. If you can do that and you’re just getting 100% return on that match money, that is great. And starting there, I think, is a good place to begin. And then I’d say, you know, if you do need to keep it just at that and not dialing it up for several years while you stockpile an emergency fund plus a down payment fund, I think you can do that as long as you come back to it, as long as you’re not taking on so much home debt that you’re never able to increase your investments. So I think it’s finding the right balance of how long would you be doing it in the service of the down payment. And then what does your cash flow look like after you’re in this home, and what are your future expenses going to be like? I do worry sometimes about people putting it all in on the home and being like, well, my home is my retirement plan. But like, okay, but that means that you need to sell your entire home in order to live off that. You can’t sell a bathroom and then, like, live off the bathroom. It’s the whole shebang. 

Mary Beth [00:15:26]:

Right, So when we’re thinking about the idea of the American dream and all the folks out there that want it to happen and whether it’s part of it, what kind of team do we need in place to execute on that? So, I mean, one of the things we talk about, realtors, mortgage brokers, what are the steps and what do you need to look for in those folks to make sure that they are the right one? Because not everybody, but some people have had horror experiences with realtors or where you get your mortgage and then it’s repackaged, resold, et cetera, like, what are the things that somebody going into this stage of life should be looking for? 

Neela [00:15:59]:

Yeah. 

Mary Beth [00:16:00]:

Who are the people they want on their side, besides a great financial planner. 

Neela [00:16:04]:

Great financial planner to figure out, you know, how much can you afford, et cetera. And then the two main players is a good realtor, a realtor that you can trust. It is a strong referral based business. And I think just making sure that you’re getting the right certifications and that you are aligned with a good realtor. So I would interview a couple of people and see. 

Mary Beth [00:16:23]:

What makes a good realtor, in your opinion. 

Neela [00:16:25]:

I’m going to answer that with a story of how I hired mine. I actually met her at the gym and I was like, I like your workout style. You’re intense. I think this is going to really work out well. 

Mary Beth [00:16:36]:

That’s right. This tracks. 

Neela [00:16:37]:

This tracks, right. And my husband and I had already been looking at homes and by my husband and me, I meant mostly me. And she and I went to see the first house together and I was like, this is it. This is great. I’m so excited. She actually talked me out of that home. That would have been like a very quick commission for her because I was like, excited. She was like, so one thing to be aware of is this neighborhood has this going on. And one thing I would think about is this. And so she talked me out of a house that we would have definitely outgrown. And after that, to me, was very trust building because I was like, she actually really wants this from a long-term fit standpoint. And so I asked her, now that we’ve become close, is how much of her business is repeat. That tells me something because people keep coming back because they do trust her. So somebody who’s really willing to go to bat for you, you, I think they are worth their weight in gold there. What would you say? 

Mary Beth [00:17:26]:

I agree. You want somebody aggressive, kind, but aggressive. Right. Who’s going to go to bat for you? I think that’s the biggest thing. You need to make sure that you have an advocate. At the end of the day, I think that’s the number one thing. And you would know that you have an advocate on your side by the repeat customers, making sure that it’s a referral, talking and getting recommendations from previous clients of theirs as well. So I think for me, that’s one of the biggest things I look for is just like the advocacy and stories and examples of how they’ve gone to bat for clients in the past.

Neela [00:17:54]:

Right. I think the other big player is like a mortgage broker. A mortgage banker? 

Mary Beth [00:17:58]:

Yes. 

Neela [00:17:59]:

Mortgage brokers can shop your loan around to multiple different banks and so you can really get the best option. And again, that’s a good referral base. If you have a relationship with your bank, you can start there, but know that they only work with their bank’s products. Every different bank has different underwriting department, different standards. And so make sure that you’re looking around. And you can do that by using a mortgage broker. 

Mary Beth [00:18:22]:

Yeah, I recommend broker. Yeah, like all day long. And I have one that I love. One of the things Neela and I talk about a lot is unreasonable hospitality. And this woman just goes above and beyond. And you want somebody who’s going to help you crunch the numbers and think through things and, like, be creative with strategies. And the thing I would say to note, though, you definitely want a mortgage broker on your side and a financial planner, because the brokers will always tell you that you can afford more than you actually can. 

Neela [00:18:47]:

Yes. 

Mary Beth [00:18:47]:

So just know… 

Neela [00:18:49]:

Just because you qualify for it. Doesn’t mean you should buy it.

Mary Beth [00:18:53]:

Yes, exactly the same as like a credit card. Don’t max that out. That’s always like, the great thing is when those numbers come through, I’m like, nope, this is actually much lower. And here is the boundary. And that’s where having a financial planner can help in interacting with the broker. What I’ve done in the past for clients in those interactions is actually, even though they’re approved, responding to the broker, too, and actually saying, like, this is the boundary. Same thing with realtors, if that’s necessary, just in terms of making sure everybody’s on the same page. But keep that in mind. 

Neela [00:19:19]:

Such an important point. I mean, honestly, the great financial crisis of 2008 and 2009 was kind of caused by that, because you had a lot of predatory lending telling people that they could afford these loans when what they were saying is, hey, you can afford this in its current interest only period. 

Mary Beth [00:19:35]:

Right? 

Neela [00:19:35]:

Then those loans amortized and people couldn’t meet their payments. But they were like, wait, I was told I could qualify for this. Now lending standards have kind of overcorrected and they’ve gotten a lot harder to qualify for. But they still might have you qualifying. They almost certainly will have you qualifying for more home than you are comfortable spending. 

Mary Beth [00:19:54]:

It’s not taking into what you should be saving for retirement. It’s not taking in childcare expenses. It’s not taking in any of your actual day to day life. It’s looking at your income, assets and running the numbers right. So only you know what you should be setting aside, you know, in addition to a mortgage payment, like what you should be setting aside for your financial future, and then you back into what you can actually afford. 

Neela [00:20:14]:

I think one more point on renting versus owning is one of the other reasons that people overestimate the rate of return on their home is that they don’t factor in all of the maintenance and repair costs along the way. 

Mary Beth [00:20:25]:

Completely agree. 

Neela [00:20:27]:

Because so many of them are surprises. 

Mary Beth [00:20:28]:

They’re surprises. 

Neela [00:20:29]:

There’s plumbing, there’s roof, there’s appliances, all those things. Whereas rent will probably go up year by year, but at least that cost is predictable in that you know what you’re going to spend on it at least through the end of your next lease. I mean, I remember the apartment I was renting before my home. I read the leasing agreement. I expensed light bulbs. I didn’t pay for a darn thing in that. And it was great because, you know, you take advantage of all of that, that something breaks, it’s somebody else’s problem. That’s one of the joys of renting. 

Mary Beth [00:20:58]:

It really is. Like, you don’t have a lawn to take care of. You don’t have to worry about any of those things. That goes back to, is it the American dream? I think it really, truly depends on what your lifestyle looks like and what your needs are. So if you don’t want to have those worries in life, like, I have a client who’s like, no, I don’t want to be a landlord. I want to be able to travel. I want to have flexibility. I don’t want to have to worry about upkeep. She rents. And that makes most sense for her because of just where she’s at in life. And she’s still very much on track for a healthy retirement. So I think it really depends on where you are in terms of this American dream idea as to what you want your life to look like. Homes do come with a lot of upkeep, a lot of maintenance, and I sure you probably feel the same way. It’s always a surprise as to what pops up, not even the main things, but you’re like, oh, like this other thing could go wrong. And so being prepared, and you have to have the assets to cover those as well, right. If you’re not prepared for those. So figuring out what it looks like for you, and I think, why do you want to own a home? Because you feel like society is telling you you should. Do you want to own a home because you want something for your family, you want the independence? What are those things, and how does that outweigh other priorities in your life? 

Neela [00:22:04]:

Totally. Sometimes we need to hear that if you’re not buying a home, you’re not necessarily missing out. It’s just different. And I think as long as we talk about what are the other plans that you’re doing so that you are building wealth because a primary residence does build wealth over time, but there are other ways that are even better. 

Mary Beth [00:22:23]:

There are, right. I mean, that’s one of the things that comes up. Your plan may be more or less boring in a different way. If you don’t have the house and the mortgage and all of these other one off expenses, you’re likely doing more of an ongoing monthly contribution. Set it, forget it into your investment accounts. There’s other things that you can do, like in terms of charitable giving or other unique strategies you could still explore, just like other folks. But if anything, it’s just you’re going to have a much more streamlined plan into terms of like what you can do on a monthly basis to get to where you want to be. And again, your retirement. What does that look like for you as well? 

Neela [00:22:55]:

Right. You know, I think it’s also going to be interesting, too, is as the older generation, this sounds terribly, terribly morbid, but as they start to pass away, there’s going to be a big generational wealth shift, too, and that there’s going to be more houses that are going to be hitting the market, younger generations that are going to be inheriting more because there’s like a lot of wealth in the boomer and Gen X generation right now. 

Mary Beth [00:23:17]:

Yeah. Like those gains are going to be locked in when it’s transferred. 

Neela [00:23:21]:

Right.

Mary Beth [00:23:22]:

All right. Anything else we’ve missed? 

Neela [00:23:24]:

I think that’s the big one. I’d say the only other thing that we can throw in there, too is that our tax system does favor home ownership, which does really reward middle and higher income people because your mortgage interest is tax deductible and your property tax, while being capped is also deductible. Yeah. Capped presently, tax laws may change, but as we talk about the people in play, as you think about homeownership, chatting with your CPA and knowing that the dollar amount that you’re spending, it’s going to be a little less on an after tax basis because you are probably going to get that mortgage interest benefit. 

Mary Beth [00:24:07]:

That’s a great point. So depending on the market that you’re buying in here to, I don’t know, a house in Kansas, look at that and how that impacts you. 

Neela [00:24:14]:

Right. But I think that’s it. I think it can be a part of the American dream. We’re also really feeling the pain of everybody who really wants to be a homeowner right now and just can’t because of economic conditions. It is very clear that economic conditions are challenging for homeowners. Stick in there. Things are going to shift. 

Mary Beth [00:24:34]:

I would say it can be a part of your dream. I don’t know that it has to be a part of the American dream. 

Neela [00:24:38]:

Yeah. Ooh, better. 

Mary Beth [00:24:40]:

I would probably amend that. 

Neela [00:24:42]:

Yeah.

Mary Beth [00:24:43]:

I think it’s changed a bit.

Neela [00:24:44]:

Yeah. 

Mary Beth [00:24:45]:

So. But if it makes sense for you and it’s part of your goal, make it happen.

Neela [00:24:50]:

Yep. 

Mary Beth [00:24:51]:

All right. 

Neela [00:24:51]:

Thanks for listening. 

Mary Beth [00:24:52]:

Thanks, y’all. 

Mary Beth [00:24:55]:

Financial knowledge is for everyone. If you enjoyed today’s episode of If Money Were Easy and you’re looking for more tools and resources to expand what’s possible with your money, head to www.learnwithabacus.com Abacus Wealth Partners elearning platform offering a variety of courses to empower you in your financial life. 

Mary Beth [00:25:37]:

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