Episode Summary

In today’s episode, we explore the often-misunderstood topic of prenuptial agreements (prenups). Joining us today is our esteemed guest, Terri Steen, an experienced family law attorney and mediator who has been practicing family law in Los Angeles since 2009. We’ll explore the phases of prenuptial agreements, their impact on communication and empathy in relationships, and what makes for successful prenup negotiations. We’ll also touch upon the importance of postnuptial agreements, legal obligations for immigrant spouses, and the complexities of commingling finances. And of course, we’ll share Terri’s personal insights and experiences that shed light on why prenups can be a vital tool for protecting individual assets and ensuring financial clarity in marriage.

So, whether you’re considering a prenup, navigating financial discussions with your partner, or simply curious about the legal and emotional facets of marriage and money, stay tuned—this episode is packed with valuable insights and practical advice.

What You’ll Learn in this Episode:

• The importance of have open money conversations early in your relationship
• The three phases of prenuptial agreements and how to navigate the potential emotional challenges
• How to talk about financial history and future financial planning in your relationship
• Why prenups should come from a mutual understanding
• The reason understanding legal obligations around finances and marriage is important in your relationship
• How to maintain separate properties and some of the rules around community property
• How often you should be looking and updating your prenuptial agreement
• A reason to seek legal counsel before marriage
• The fundamental principal to achieve financial stability while making sound financial decisions
• The stigmas surrounding prenups

Stay Connected:

• Connect with Terry on LinkedIn
• Connect with Mary Beth on Twitter, Instagram, and on LinkedIn 
• Connect with Neela on Twitter, Instagram, and on LinkedIn
• Join the Abacus community by connecting with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and on LinkedIn

Transcript of the Episode

Mary Beth [00:00:14]:

Hey there. Welcome to the If Money Were Easy podcast, the show where we teach you how to expand what’s possible with your money. We are your hosts, Mary Beth Storjohann

 Neela [00:00:25]:

and Neela Hummel,

Mary Beth [00:00:26]:

certified financial planners and co CEO’s of Abacus Wealth Partners. Today on the show we’re talking about prenups. 

Neela [00:00:33]:

And we are joined by Terry Steen, an attorney who provides discreet, compassionate and responsive assistance to her clients with their sensitive family law matters. That includes divorce, legal separation, termination of domestic partnerships, parentage actions, custody, child support, spousal support, division of assets, prenups, postnups, cohab agreements, I just made that a thing, domestic violence, restraining orders and the works. Terry has extensive experience navigating complex high conflict cases, including those involving narcissists, trust assets, self employment and other business ownership interests. Terry is also a mediator and meets all state requirements for appointment as minors counsel. Terry’s practiced family law in LA since 2009, graduated from the top of her class from USC Gould School of Law in 2007, and has remained in LA since moving here for law school in 2004. She also splits her time between serving her clients and delivering nonprofit work through the Harriet Buhai center for Family Law. Terry, welcome to the show. 

Terry [00:01:49]:

Hello. Thank you. Thank you. It’s good to see you again also. 

Mary Beth [00:01:52]:

What your bio is saying is that everybody wants you on their team, right? Everybody. Everybody needs a Terry in their list. 

Terry [00:01:58]:

Everybody needs a Terry. 

Mary Beth [00:01:59]:

Oh, that list. That is a powerful list 

Neela [00:02:02]:

That is a list, yes. 

Terry [00:02:04]:

And Cohab agreements, not very many people know about those, but they are a thing.

Neela [00:02:08]:

Yeah. 

Terry [00:02:09]:

When you have a lot of assets, you need a cohabitation agreement. 

Neela [00:02:12]:

I feel like we could have like twelve different sessions on each of those things. 

Mary Beth [00:02:18]:

This is turning into a series, already.

Neela [00:02:19]:

But maybe we’ll focus immediately on the prenups. 

Terry [00:02:24]:

Yes. 

Neela [00:02:25]:

This is something that we get asked a lot about. So can you set the landscape for us? What is a prenup? In very simple terms.

Terry [00:02:32]:

Okay. In very simple terms, it is when you want to change the contract for your marriage that the state of California has already put in place for you. So they have rules about what happens to everybody’s money. And if you want different rules for your relationship, then you need a prenuptial agreement, which is your own actual written contract. 

Mary Beth [00:02:57]:

Okay. And so what are those rules that happen to already be in place that nobody actually knows what they’re agreeing on. 

Terry [00:03:04]:

So nobody knows that what they’re agreeing to you is that prior to marriage, whatever assets and debts you own, those are your separate property. And then when you get married, the line, everything that you earn through your efforts after you get married is the community’s property. And if you go into debt, that is a community debt. So the presumption is that things you acquire, whether an asset or debt, are going to belong to the community during the period that you’re married. And then if you separate, once you say this marriage is over, everything after that date, if you acquire it, the presumption is that it’s separate property again. But then there are other rules about what happens if you have separate property and your efforts go to improve that separate property. Well, now the community gets an interest. What if you own a house and you owned it before marriage, but you use your paycheck during marriage to pay for the mortgage? Well, you pay for the mortgage. You pay for the insurance. You pay for all of the other carrying costs? Well, which parts of those are creating a debt to the community? Basically, where the community is investing in this separate property asset and which parts actually don’t count. And so in California, anything that reduces the principal will end up becoming an investment by the community into that property, and you end up with a pro rata share between your separate property and community property. 

Neela [00:04:53]:

And we should give a disclaimer. All laws are different. We’re talking about California purposes, which is a community property state. And so almost like what you’re saying is everybody has a prenup. It’s just with the state of California. And it’s like, if you want to replace the prenup with the state of California, then you need a new document. Otherwise, the state will decide. And it’s almost putting you as we’re all individuals. And then once we get married, it’s almost like I’m half of me and I’m half of my husband. 

Terry [00:05:22]:

Well, I would also say that you become a business. You have the business of your marriage. 

Neela [00:05:30]:

Got it. 

Terry [00:05:31]:

You are now in a business partnership, and you have fiduciary duties to each other, and you are building this business together. And they actually, the reason I’m using that analogy is because family law actually borrows from business law to put the rules in place about what you owe to each other. 

Neela [00:05:55]:

Is there some stipulation of what you can do to your business partner if they don’t put their socks in the hamper? 

Mary Beth [00:06:04]:

I’m over here thinking about all the people who go into business, all these people who don’t want business partners. I just came back from a conference talking about independence versus partnership, and I’m like, oh, and then viewing. Okay, yeah, this is interesting, you know, with this lens on marriage. 

Terry [00:06:16]:

And the rule is the same, you’re not allowed to murder them. Oh, right. I got it. 

Neela [00:06:24]:

Just. I’m going to take a quick note. 

Terry [00:06:26]:

Yeah, no murder. 

Mary Beth [00:06:29]:

So knowing that you enter prenup the state of California, let’s say, knowing that there’s already predetermined set of laws, do you blanket recommend prenups across the board? When do you recommend a prenup and when do you say, no, state of California is fine. Follow what’s already in place. 

Terry [00:06:46]:

So you need a prenup when you want different rules for spousal support, because in California, the rule basically is that if one spouse earns more than the other spouse and they have the ability to pay support and the other spouse needs support, then they will receive spousal support until they are able to become self supporting or under the termination guidelines of the state, which is if you’ve been married ten years or less, then generally you can receive spouse support for half the length of the marriage. If you’ve been married more than ten years, it’s called a long term marriage, and you could potentially receive spousal support forever until somebody dies or remarries or, well, the spouse receiving support remarries or they’ve become self supporting. So if you want that to be a shorter duration, if you want it to be a set amount, or if you want to put any other rules onto your spousal support obligation, you would need a prenuptial agreement. If you want to carve out what income after you get married will be separate versus community property, then you would need a prenup. If you want to just have kind of rules in place for how you’ll divide assets. I shouldn’t say if you’re going to divide assets. If you have real property and you want to have an agreement in place about what the value of that property was when you got married and how you will value it if you ever have to divide it because of divorce, then you need a prenuptial agreement. So the idea is that a prenuptial agreement puts in place the rules for you to decouple if we can borrow that rule from a celebrity divorce that we all know. Yeah. So if you want rules in place to decouple, it’s not for everybody. If you came into the marriage with nothing and you really are building everything together, usually the rules that are already in place are the fair rules that people will want. So, for example, I have my own business practice, and I have an established career. If I were to get married tomorrow, I would want a prenuptial agreement to say that my business is going to remain my business no matter what efforts are that I put into it. Right. And that just takes care of any fighting at the end. If somebody says, well, your efforts went into that business while we were married, so I should get some piece of that. Whereas if somebody starts a business together with their spouse, then maybe they don’t want to carve that out. 

Mary Beth [00:09:43]:

Got it. So if you’re coming together with equal net worths or maybe starting from the same space, it sounds like you’re saying, unless there’s maybe a unique circumstance, maybe you have inherited wealth coming. There’s certain cases where maybe then you want to prenup. But if all things are equal, it may not make the most sense to have a prenup. The question I have is, when does it make sense only bringing in existing assets? What if I’m not married, but I have plans to start a business on the other side, or I know my income potential is going to triple. I’m a doctor, I’ve gone and have all these loans, and now my income potential is going to skyrocket? Do I have a prenup then, or am I just now married and knowing that income differential, I’m on the hook because it’s not going to hit for three to five more years. 

Terry [00:10:22]:

Well, so that’s an interesting question, because if you have student loans, those are your obligation under California law. So unless you have been married long enough that the community business has been able to benefit from repayment of that debt. If you get divorced, any money that you have paid to repay those loans, you’re going to have to repay to the community, which really means you repay half. So your spouse gets reimbursed half of whatever. So you might want a prenuptial agreement that says community does not get reimbursement for repayment of any of those loans, no matter how long we’re married. If we’re married a year, if we’re married 50 years, I was gonna pay that back no matter what. And so we agree that I don’t have to repay the community for payment of my student loans. Same thing with child or spousal support for different relationships. You would have to repay the community because those are separate property obligations. You can have a prenuptial agreement that says community waives repayment of those obligations. 

Neela [00:11:35]:

And so if the loan is yours before you enter in community, then they’re yours. But if you, let’s say, if you go back to school after you’re married, that’s shared debt. That is basically accrued after you have been married. That’s split both ways?

Terry [00:11:52]:

Yes and no. So really, the short answer to when you need a prenup is go talk to somebody about your situation, and they can help you figure out whether you need a prenup, because California has special rules for everything, right? So if you are married and then you go to school, yes, that is a community debt. But at divorce, it will be assigned to the party who got the education, and then determination of whether there is an offset on the community balance sheet. So whether that just gets put in your ledger, the entire 100%, or whether you get offset of 50% of that depends on whether the community benefited already from the education. So usually the guideline, and I always say guideline or the usual, because there’s always exceptions. But the usual rule is if you obtain the education during marriage and then you have been married for ten years past that, it’s generally assumed that the community has already benefited from that, and so there won’t be an offset. But again, there’s going to always be an exception. So, for example, I have seen cases where there were student loans, but the proceeds weren’t actually used for the education. They took out the student loans because it was a low interest rate, and then they used it to take vacations. So then you have to figure out, is that really a student loan that should fall under this guideline rule, or is it normal debt that both parties should be responsible for? And how do you deal with that? So these are the kinds of things like, I cannot give you. I wish I could give you a blanket. There’s no blanket, but they do not exist in California law. 

Mary Beth [00:13:53]:

So how do you recommend couples talk about prenups, then, knowing the complexities that are coming, how do you start? 

Terry [00:14:00]:

I hope that what they do is talk to each other about their finances generally, so they have a good idea of what each of them owns, what each of them owes, what their expectations are about how things will be divided, or what interest they’ll have in property that was pre existing, figure out where the pain points are and where they agree, and then discuss how they want to resolve this with the aid of counsel or without the aid of counsel. But really, it’s a conversation between the two people about what they want, this shared, this merger, if you will, to look like. And often what I find is that the person asking for the prenup waits too long to bring up the issue, which I don’t think is fair to either of them. I think if somebody believes in prenuptial agreements, it should be brought up pretty early. 

Neela [00:15:07]:

Right. 

Terry [00:15:08]:

Even if you don’t know if you’re going to get married yet, you can just say, hey, you know, if I ever get married, I’m probably going to want a prenup. So you’ve already planted the seed, right? 

Neela [00:15:18]:

Right. 

Terry [00:15:19]:

And then you can start getting into particulars. 

Neela [00:15:22]:

It’s funny because I’m going to try and not sing the song that we all know about prenups, but I do feel like prenups have a little bit of a marketing problem. I’ve talked to so many people, and the sentence I get is, and then I got a prenup foisted upon me, this idea of receiving a prenup and how the interpretation of that is distrust in the marriage. How do you counter that? How do you take the temperature down, destigmatize the idea of a prenup and make it so it doesn’t feel so adversarial. 

Terry [00:15:54]:

Right. Most people who come into my office, they have not yet talked about finances with their partner. And so I look at it as really, I wish everybody would talk to a lawyer before they get married just so they do understand the rules. And so I explained to my clients, look, this is a way for you to understand what your rights and obligations would have been without this agreement. And then your partner is telling you how they want to change this. And it’s a negotiation process. And honestly, it’s also an opportunity to figure out if you are really right for each other. Because if you are on two different planets about how to handle money and how to look at money and you’re not able to talk about it and talk through it, you probably want some relationship counseling before you actually get married. 

Neela [00:16:48]:

Right. It’s not a financial concern. It’s a communication concern. Right. 

Terry [00:16:52]:

It’s a communication concern. Exactly. I also tell my clients that, especially if they are the person with the lower income or fewer assets who feels hurt by this, I explain to them that this is a way for them to actually have a voice in what’s happening and to also confront their own subconscious beliefs that they may not have realized that they were holding on to you about what it means to get married. Because we’re all raised in this patriarchal society, and even if you are a strong feminist who believes I can take care of myself and I don’t need anything, and they walk in and they say, my spouse can have everything, I don’t need anything. And then it’s in front of them in black and white, and suddenly they’re dealing with feelings they didn’t expect, and it’s because their expectations are running into reality, and they’re thinking about things they never had to think about before. And it may not be so much that they’re upset with the concepts of what is being done, but just that they had internalized beliefs that they didn’t really know they had, if that makes sense.

Neela [00:18:19]:

Oh, my God, that’s such an eye opening statement, because I feel like I’ve encountered that so often where people are like, yeah, it’s fine, we’ll do a prenup. Like, whatever. That’s phase one. And then phase two is that deep seated: Ooh, this is kind of starting to get a little crunchy. Why does this feel weird? What are the intentions? And so I don’t know how many phases of prenup there are, but those are at least the first two. 

Terry [00:18:43]:

Right? And the third phase is you negotiate and you figure out what you can live with or not live with. I definitely had relationships that came to the brink of ending because of these discussions. I’ve seen them where they ended shortly after. Like, they did actually get married, but they did not last a year. And you can see the signs of that in the prenuptial discussion because you’re seeing all the red flags in their ability to communicate with respect and to have compassion for the other person’s feelings, understanding where their feelings are coming from, because they’re both coming in with baggage about money, and you have to give room for them to figure out what is fair for the two of you. And it’s not always a snapshot about what’s happening right now. In fact, if you have a good attorney, it is not a snapshot about what is happening just right now, because a lot of people come in very short term. Oh, I want to have this, because if we don’t make it even five years, I don’t want this other person to get anything, or I don’t need anything. I take care of myself. But then what about if you have children? What about if somebody leaves the workforce permanently or temporarily? What if somebody has a disability? Then what’s fair? And I think the better time to start thinking about that is, is before you get married, when you still are in love and you see the good in this other person and you want what’s best for this other person rather than after. You have already been dealing with the stress and headaches of whatever is putting tension in the marriage, and you’re no longer able to see them objectively. 

Mary Beth [00:20:34]:

So what are the characteristics or qualities of a successful prenup negotiation? 

Terry [00:20:40]:

To me, success is when they are able to understand each other’s viewpoints, and they both compromise to come up with what they believe treats them both fairly, no matter what the stage is in their relationship, that they may end up having this breakdown in the relationship. But also, just remember, prenups can be changed. What I find is that people write this prenup, and they sign it, and they put it in a drawer, and they never think about it again until the worst has happened. And really, I don’t think that’s the way to do it. People need to be familiar with the terms of the agreement so that, one, they’re living by them. We can talk about commingling in a second, which is really important, but also that they reassess. Hey, you know, we’ve been married five years now. We know what marriage to each other looks like. Does this all still make sense? We’ve been married ten years. We have five kids. I don’t know. We have grandkids. What makes sense here, right? We’re ten houses down the line or something. What you felt about your first property you ever owned versus your third house after you kept moving up, hopefully expanding, it might just not fit anymore. 

Neela [00:22:04]:

Yeah. And the same way that we tell people, dust off your estate plan every five to seven years, you should almost do that at the same time, because then, you know.

Terry [00:22:14]:

Absolutely. 

Neela [00:22:14]:

Several years in, you know what things are looking like, and you can make more informed decisions.

Terry [00:22:20]:

Absolutely. I recently had a client who had an estate plan, and she wanted to modify her prenuptial agreement. And the prenuptial agreement said, everything is separate, and the estate plan said, everything is community. And I said, well, this is a problem because these two things cannot exist at the same time. Right. 

Neela [00:22:47]:

Right. What does the court do with that? I guess the prenup goes away if somebody dies. 

Terry [00:22:52]:

Well, it doesn’t. No, the prenup doesn’t go away. 

Neela [00:22:54]:

Okay. 

Terry [00:22:54]:

So what ends up happening is almost always, your prenuptial agreement will say that no matter what your state documents say, it governs. Okay, so in this case, everything would have been separate property. But then the problem is figuring out, well, if everything is separate property, is this estate plan enforceable in any way? If the foundation is weak, what is the implication for carrying out the party’s wishes? And that’s where an estate attorney has to chime in, because I have no idea on that. Side of the equation. All I know is that we have rules about what happens to community property in death and rules about what happens to separate property in death and who can inherit what. And so to me, it seems like it’s going to add a very big wrinkle if what everybody thought was community is now separate property and needed to be addressed in a different way in the estate plan. I should clarify.

Neela [00:23:57]:

And once you edit a prenup after you’ve been married, do we now call it a postnup? 

Terry [00:24:03]:

We do. So that’s a postnuptial agreement, and you have different fiduciary duties. So before you get married, you have no fiduciary duties to one another. Once you’re married, you owe each other the highest good faith towards one another. They’re just like business partners. 

Neela [00:24:20]:

Yep. 

Terry [00:24:21]:

And so if you do a post nuptial agreement that is very one sided and there’s no explanation for why the parties intended to do this, there’s gonna be a presumption by the court generally that it’s invalid, that it was a violation of the fiduciary duties. And so the person who wants to enforce it has to prove that they met all of the requirements that they need to show that they did handle it in good faith and fair dealing. 

Mary Beth [00:24:58]:

Like it wasn’t coercion or any of that. 

Terry [00:24:59]:

There was no duress, there was no coercion, that both sides had all of the facts. So a lot of times, what you’ll see is somebody will. It’s not a post nuptial agreement, but you’ll see something where somebody has community property, and then they want to get a refinance, and then after the refinance, there’s suddenly a quit claim deed being done. Well, that quit claim deed is during the marriage, and it’s giving up rights. And the person signing it, if they didn’t understand their rights, well, that quick claim deed isn’t going to be enforced. So there are stronger disclosure rules and more investigation into what did each side receive for entering this agreement, if it’s a post nuptial agreement. 

Neela [00:25:49]:

So if you have clients who are barreling forward, right. They’re coming to you way too late, and they just move forward on the marriage, and they basically miss their prenup opportunity. They can still get a postnup, but they just have different responsibilities to each other. 

Terry [00:26:03]:

They do. 

Neela [00:26:03]:

Okay. And the agreements are still just as effective. They just have a different fiduciary standard when actually creating the documents. 

Terry [00:26:10]:

Correct. And the just as enforceable is also important because in California, if any of these agreements are considered unconscionable at the time of enforcement, so not when you entered it, but when you’re trying to enforce it, the judge has discretion to say, I’m not going to enforce this. It’s unconscionable. And there are no cases on what that looks like. So I cannot tell you. I have no crystal ball to tell you what unconscionable looks like. What I generally tell my clients, though, is if you have a complete waiver of spousal support and they get no assets, they’re getting, like, I don’t know, a payout of, like, 40 grand, and you’ve got. The higher earner has millions and millions of dollars, and they’ve been married 15 years, and they’re giving 40 grand and saying, go away. And that person had some kind of disability. So now that occurred during the marriage, so that now they’re unable to work. I cannot imagine any judge saying, this is an enforceable agreement if it says that they don’t get support. Because part of the public policy of the state is that if you get married, you have an obligation, no matter what, to keep supporting this person so that the government doesn’t have to. You basically agreed to be the one on the hook to take care of them. If it’s you or government aide, it’s probably gonna be you. 

Mary Beth [00:27:49]:

That is a fascinating perspective. 

Neela [00:27:51]:

That is wild. 

Terry [00:27:51]:

I mean, within certain other parameters, such as, you know, the short term marriage. Because everybody has a duty to become self supporting, right? Yeah, but if they’re not able to be self supporting through no fault of their own, you’re probably gonna be helping them out.

Mary Beth [00:28:12]:

I feel like the head exploding emoji right now a little bit. 

Terry [00:28:20]:

I mean, you can. Yes. The things that people don’t. 

Mary Beth [00:28:22]:

The things that we know, but then when they’re verbalized back to you, you know, like, we know this, but. 

Terry [00:28:28]:

And the same thing has happened with. I mean, it’s a little afield from these marital agreements, but the same thing happens when you marry somebody from another country. You bring them into the US, and when they get that visa because of marriage, you’re signing a form saying that you’re going to be financially responsible for this person. And there you’re not just dealing with state laws about support. You’re also dealing with federal laws where you’ve signed a contract saying that this person isn’t going to be a drain on society. You’re financially responsible for them. 

Neela [00:29:06]:

And here I thought the socks were the issue. You know. 

Terry [00:29:14]:

And then the whole other wrinkle in all of this is what I was saying before about commingling. So let’s say you’ve done the most strict kind of prenuptial agreement, saying, everything is separate property. Everything I own is mine. Everything you own is yours. Separate, separate, separate. And then you put that in the drawer, and you live your life, and you file your taxes together, and you have joint bank accounts, and you have commingled your investment accounts. Once everything starts getting mixed together, if you cannot then go and separate it and figure out, you have to trace it. Okay, so there’s a whole career field that most people, unless they’ve gone through it, don’t know about, which is marital forensic accounting. 

Mary Beth [00:30:10]:

We know about this. Obviously, we know about this. 

Terry [00:30:12]:

So they will go in and trace every expenditure during your marriage to try to figure out what was separate property and what was community property. And it is really, really expensive. And the longer you are married and the further you have to go back, the messier it gets. Most financial institutions only have records for seven years. So if you haven’t kept the records and you’ve been married 20 years, if you don’t have evidence, you can’t prove it. And while testimony is evidence, the judge has to decide how credible you are and how much weight to give whatever forms of evidence there are. So if there’s a document that gets more weight than just testimony, with nothing else to back it up. So if you say this account is going to be separate property, keep it separate. Open up a new account the day you get married and put your community property into that new account, and leave your separate property account completely separate. Pay attention to where your money is going if you want to keep your separate property separate. And if you’re going to use separate property to the benefit of the community, talk about how you want that deal, because it is a deal you’re making, how you want that to look. So, for example, you’re buying a new house together. You sell your separate property house, and you’re going to take the equity from the separate property and put it into the new property. Well, if you acquire this house during marriage, it’s a community property house. You have a right to reimbursement of your separate property that you invested in the house, but that’s without any appreciation. If you put 100,000 in, you get 100,000 out. Well, if it had stayed in your separate property, it would have continued growing. The full amount of that growth would have been yours. So maybe you want to agree I’ll put the 100,000 into this house, but I don’t want it to just be a right of reimbursement. I want to actually have a 30% ownership. 30. 70. So the community has 70%. I have 30. So you just have to talk about what you want it to look like and what the rules are that you’re going to encounter in the first place. 

Neela [00:32:53]:

So I think the words of the day are commingling and unconscionable. Those are my main. 

Terry [00:32:59]:

Yes. Which, unconscionable, I think, is every lawyer’s favorite word. All we did in law school, me and my friends, was say everything was unconscionable. 

Neela [00:33:09]:

Everything’s unconscionable. It’s just like. It’s like an. It’s an eject ramp or something where it’s like in. Or, you know, lever. That’s what I mean. Yeah. In case an emergency, pull out the unconscionable. So if I were to put a package around it, obviously, the number one thing is, if you have any questions or you’re about to get married, talk to legal counsel. 

Terry [00:33:28]:

Yes. 

Neela [00:33:29]:

But also give it enough time before you’re married so nobody feels that it’s predatory in any way. Have super good communication, even if it’s uncomfortable. Do your own work so that you can start uncovering the feelings that come up for you. But make sure you all are talking about your finances to really confront those fears. 

Terry [00:33:48]:

Yes, absolutely. 

Neela [00:33:50]:

And then redo them every so often. It’s not a one and done.

Terry [00:33:53]:

Right. At least look at it. At least look at it. 

Neela [00:33:56]:

Right. People are like, oh, I hated it so much the first time. Now I get to do it every single years. Perfect. But it gets easier. 

Mary Beth [00:34:03]:

It does. I mean, the more time you have under your belt, I don’t know, does it feel you’re there longer, so. 

Terry [00:34:09]:

And follow your agreement. 

Neela [00:34:12]:

Right.

Terry [00:34:13]:

Know what you’re supposed to be doing.

 Neela [00:34:15]:

Yeah. 

Terry [00:34:15]:

So that you can follow it and life is easier on everyone in the worst case scenario. 

Mary Beth [00:34:21]:

Okay, Terry, I think we’re going to transition to our closing questions. 

Terry [00:34:26]:

Okay. 

Mary Beth [00:34:26]:

Sound good? 

Terry [00:34:27]:

Yeah. 

Mary Beth [00:34:27]:

Okay. What is the best financial advice you have ever received? 

Terry [00:34:32]:

This was when I was really young. My mom taught me to always save and not live beyond my means. I grew up very poor, so we lived in government housing. We were on food stamps, and she set up, like, a little fake store with little paper play checks and taught me to manage my money. And that advice, I think, gives me the freedom to make big changes in my life without having to be worried about whether I’m going to be able to eat. 

Neela [00:35:05]:

I love that. That’s like 80% of financial planning is like, don’t live beyond your means. Right? 

Terry [00:35:11]:

Exactly. 

Mary Beth [00:35:12]:

Absolutely it.

Neela [00:35:14]:

So the inverse of that. What’s your favorite money mistake you’ve made and why? 

Terry [00:35:21]:

I went to school late, and I didn’t become a lawyer until I was in my late thirties, and so I’m a little behind on getting to my retirement goals. But in 2017, I decided to take a year off to go travel. And I allowed myself while traveling, I went to Antarctica and Africa, and I tried to live frugally. I stayed in hostels, but I also allowed myself to do whatever I wanted to do while I was there because I didn’t think I would ever go back. That is not, I don’t think what any financial planner would tell you to do. Take a big chunk of your money and just go spend it for a year. But I have no regrets. 

Neela [00:36:06]:

It’s a favorite, right?

Mary Beth [00:36:09]:

That’s a powerful one. Yeah, I don’t fault anybody for that. I can’t. 

Terry [00:36:11]:

I mean, it was because my, my aunt and uncle were going to go sail for like, a year or something after they retired. The night of my aunt’s retirement party, my uncle had a stroke and he is still with us, but they never got to go do their sailing trip. And so I really thought hard about what are the things that I want to do that I want to make sure no matter what happens to me, that I get these done. 

Neela [00:36:36]:

Well, and from a financial planner perspective, it’s not like you put it all on credit cards, right? You had money, you invested because of rule one, which was never live beyond your means. 

Terry [00:36:46]:

Yep. Yes. Oh, yes.

Mary Beth [00:36:48]:

Powerful. Okay, fill in the blank. If money were easy… 

Terry [00:36:55]:

We could all be our best selves. I think everybody would be more generous, probably more patient, because they don’t have all the stresses of how am I going to take care of my kids, how am I going to take care of my family? How am I going to retire? Am I going to have to work until I’m 90? Like, a lot of that goes away, so then we can just be our best selves because we’re taken care of. 

Neela [00:37:17]:

I love that. 

Mary Beth[00:37:18]:

That’s great. 

Neela [00:37:19]:

It’s great. Okay, Terry, how can our listeners find you on the Internet, etcetera? 

Terry [00:37:24]:

Yes. The best way is to go to my website, steenlegal.com, and fill out the form letting me know that this, they want to set up some time to talk to me and it lets me do a conflict check to make sure that I haven’t already talked to somebody else involved and lets me set up a time that we can talk uninterrupted and I get the information I need so that I can give them the information they need. 

Mary Beth [00:37:51]:

Perfect. I was on Terry’s website earlier. She has a great quote on there that says, “You can marry the right person today, yet be married to the wrong person someday without having married again.”

Neela [00:38:03]:

Ooh, I like that. Connects. 

Terry [00:38:07]:

Yeah, I love it. I mean, we’re all changing, right? 

Neela [00:38:11]:

Works in progress, right? 

Terry [00:38:12]:

Yes. 

Mary Beth [00:38:12]:

Absolutely. Terry, thank you so much for this conversation. This was really great. Very educational. 

Terry [00:38:18]:

Oh, thank you. I hope, hope it made sense because it’s a very dense subject and it’s hard to bring all the pieces in. 

Neela [00:38:26]:

Complicated, and at the end of the day, they just, they got to call you. 

Mary Beth [00:38:30]:

Everybody needs a Terry. 

Neela [00:38:32]:

Yeah.

Terry [00:38:33]:

Thank you so much. 

Mary Beth [00:38:34]:

Thanks. 

Terry [00:38:34]:

This was great. 

Mary Beth [00:38:37]:

Financial knowledge is for everyone. If you enjoyed today’s episode of If Money Were Easy and you’re looking for more tools and resources to expand what’s possible with your money, head to www.learnwithabacus.com Abacus Wealth Partners elearning platform offering a variety of courses to empower you in your financial life.

 Mary Beth [00:39:21]:

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