Reflections on 2023, the Financial Climate, and What Investors Should Consider in 2024 with Abacus’ Co-CIOs

Cover art for episode featuring Lindsey Woodward and Matt Rivera

If Money Were Easy

Hosted by Mary Beth Storjohann and Neela Hummel

Reflections on 2023, the Financial Climate, and What Investors Should Consider in 2024 with Abacus’ Co-CIOs

Graphic of a photo of Mary Beth and Neela with a blue banner that reads, "If Money Were Easy"
If Money Were Easy
Reflections on 2023, the Financial Climate, and What Investors Should Consider in 2024 with Abacus' Co-CIOs

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Episode Summary

Today we’re joined by Abacus’ co-CIOs, Lindsey Woodward, MBA, CFP® and Matt Rivera, CFA, CFP®, to discuss how the fourth quarter of last year turned out and how the markets and economy ultimately performed in 2023. Despite predictions of recession and high inflation, the market defied the odds, ending on a high thanks to disciplined investing. Mary Beth and Neela will talk with Lindsey and Matt about why interest rates change, what can cause them to go up or down, and how that can affect you. Lindsey and Matt will also reveal how investors can approach swings in the stock market and what to stay focused on. They will finish up with talking about what you can control, what to do about the things you can’t control, and how to keep your finances on track!

What You’ll Learn in this Episode:

  • How the markets in Q4 compared to the rest of 2023
  • Why the Fed raises or lowers interest rates
  • Why discipline is important when investing and how 2023 demonstrated that
  • What to focus on in your investments when markets are up and down
  • Some info on values aligned investing and ESG investing
  • How to tell if the funds you are in are values aligned or ESG funds
  • The impact geopolitical events can have on stock market volatility
  • Expectations for the market going into this election year
  • Reasons to focus on your long-term investment strategy, even when the short term is volatile

Resources Mentioned on the Show:

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Transcript of the Episode

Mary Beth [00:00:14]:

Hey there, welcome to the If Money Were Easy podcast, the show where we teach you how to expand what’s possible with your money. We are your hosts, Mary Beth Storjohann

Neela [00:00:23]:

and Neela Hummel, 

Mary Beth [00:00:24]:

certified financial planners and co CEOs of Abacus Wealth Partners. Today on the show we are talking about quarter four, 2023 Reflections with Abacus co CIOs. 

Neela [00:00:38]:

So today we are so delighted to have our fearless co-CIOs in the seats. I will start by introducing Lindsey and then I’ll hand it over to Mary Beth to introduce Matt. So Lindsey Woodward, CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™, is a partner at Abacus Wealth where she serves as co-chief investment officer and financial advisor. Lindsey is dedicated to helping the people and organizations she works with align their money with their personal goals and societal values. She is a proud member of Wise, Women Investing for a Sustainable Economy, and Acumen Impact Next. Lindsey spent her early career in client relations and client portfolio management at Dimensional Fund Advisors and at Thornberg Investment Management. She holds a BS in economics from the University of Arizona and an MBA from the University of New Mexico. Lindsey loves traveling, exploring new restaurants and hiking with her partner and pups. Her favorite evenings are spent catching up with family and friends over a great dinner. 

Mary Beth [00:01:35]:

And second, we have Matt Rivera, CFP, who is a partner at Abacus and serves as co-chief investment officer and financial advisor. Matt has a BS in managerial economics from UC Davis and holds the Chartered Financial Analyst designation. Matt enjoys helping clients make sound financial choices by quantifying the costs of different decisions in a way that resonates with them. Outside of work, Matt loves to spend his time with family and friends, play golf, watch football and baseball, camping and go fly fishing. Matt is a man’s man. That’s what we’re saying here. 

Lindsey [00:02:07]:


Mary Beth [00:02:08]:

Totally outdoorsy. And I love it. Welcome to the show. 

Matt [00:02:12]:

I don’t know who wrote that, but thank you, I guess. I don’t know. Or maybe not. 

Mary Beth [00:02:16]:

I don’t know if Neela wrote it. Did Neela, did you write this? 

Neela [00:02:18]:

I don’t know. I did not. 

Mary Beth [00:02:19]:

Grace wrote it. Shout out to Grace, our marketing assistant. Grace wrote this up today. I saw it in the notes. She tagged us. Grace wrote this. Thank you, Grace. 

Neela [00:02:26]:

So we have two of the most humble people on the planet. Reading their bios and watching their faces as we’re reading their bios is so entertaining.

Mary Beth [00:02:33]:

Super entertaining. 

Neela [00:02:34]:

Squirming and hiding their faces. 

Mary Beth [00:02:36]:

Matt just went off camera. Actually, Matt literally just turned his camera off. 

Neela [00:02:40]:

Stop looking at me. I’ll tell you my ideas. 

Mary Beth [00:02:43]:

Wait, can I make Lindsey a little more uncomfortable. Lindsey’s our first returning guest. Lindsey’s first returning guest that we have. Welcome back, Lindsey. 

Lindsey [00:02:49]:

Thanks for having me again. 

Neela [00:02:52]:

So we’re going to try something a little different this time. We want to make sure that all of our investors listening have a good sense of what’s actually happening in the markets. And so we invited our co CIOs on to look back, see what happened, what was going on in the media, how did things actually turn out and just get their professional opinion on what the heck is going on in the markets? Because I feel like that’s a timeless question that you can ask every single quarter. So let us know what you think. But we are excited to dive into investments. So, Matt and Lindsey, Q4 in review, one or two sentences, and I’m really capping you at, like, one to two sentences. How would you describe what happened in the quote unquote markets? 

Matt [00:03:37]:

Q4 in a couple of sentences, strong finish. How about that? Or maybe just a couple of words. 

Neela [00:03:43]:

Ooh, I like that. 

Mary Beth [00:03:45]:

Overachiever. All right, Lynds, how about you? 

Lindsey [00:03:48]:

Oh, same question. 

Mary Beth [00:03:50]:

Same question. 

Lindsey [00:03:51]:

Oh, gosh, Matt said it so well and so succinctly.

Mary Beth [00:03:57]:

What does it look like, what transpired in Q4 to get us to a strong finish? Zooming out. We’re talking about fourth quarter being able to say a strong finish. What happened throughout the year laid the foundation of what 2023 looked like.

Lindsey [00:04:07]:

So much happened in 2023. We went into the year with rising rates and expectations for even higher rates. A lot of people predicting that we might enter a recession as a result of rates. It was a really great year, despite what we went in thinking it would be or what a lot of people were predicting it would be. And there were a lot of events throughout the year that made it a really interesting time for investors. But overall, it’s a really good lesson in staying invested. I mean, at the end of 2022, there were a lot of people who were really, really worried about still being invested. We had seen unprecedented rate hikes, bond market hit, and it was a scary time to be an investor. And the people who stuck with their plans were rewarded in 2023. 

Mary Beth [00:05:07]:

So, Matt, talk to us for a minute about interest rates and the increases and what that means for consumers and then also what that means for investors. 

Matt [00:05:15]:

Yeah, sure. So it’s such a good question, and there’s so many things that it does mean. So, Lindsey, please help me out as I go along here. But higher interest rates mean a couple things. So as a bond investor, first, higher interest rates typically mean if you’re holding a bond, that the price of that bond is going to drop a little bit in the short term, but it also means that you’re going to get more interest from bonds in general from that point on. Right. So as a bond investor, overall, I would say it means short term, a little bit of pain as rates go up, and then longer term, that kind of evens out and maybe even can net be a benefit. As a stock investor, we think of stocks at Abacus as a really good hedge for inflation. And what I mean by that is that when rates are going up and you can see inflation go up, there’s a correlation typically between the two things. Prices are going up, there’s a lot of things happening, and your stock exposure is one of the best ways to counteract that, is what I mean when I say a hedge. 

Neela [00:06:10]:

So when our listeners hear terms like the Fed and interest rates and all of this Alphabet soup of should I be worried about inflation? Should I be worried about interest rates? Sorting through it, and to Mary Beth’s question, beyond investments, how do things like inflation and rising interest rates, how does that impact ordinary consumers? 

Lindsey [00:06:30]:

Yeah, sure. So basically what the Fed has in its tool belt is the ability to raise rates, which really, when we think about inflation, it’s a measurement of the growth of the cost of goods and services that we all consume throughout the US economy. And when that rises so significantly and wages don’t keep pace with it, it makes it really hard for the average American to keep up and afford things like groceries and gas, like things that we all really need. And so that’s why the Fed has to step in. And after an unprecedented time, where we were near zero for the Fed’s target rate, which we can get into a little bit more, the Fed was able to raise interest rates, which makes borrowing more expensive and access to capital more expensive, which curbs spending, which tames inflation, because there’s not as much demand when people are out buying goods and services, hiking up those prices and inflating those prices. And so that’s kind of the mechanism that the Fed has to use when inflation gets out of control. 

Matt [00:07:56]:

Good example of that for an individual is if you’re going to buy a house, if interest rates are up, it’s harder to borrow money, or it’s more expensive to borrow money, you probably can afford less house, or maybe you put off the decision. So interest rates going up has a way to slow down the economy. And you can take that same example you could apply to a business. So if a business is looking to expand. Maybe it’s going to open up a new office somewhere or start a new product line. Businesses need access to capital in the same way that individuals do to buy a house. So borrowing that money is more expensive. They probably put that project off or they trim it down. Right. And so that’s how the rising rates translates to a slower economy. 

Mary Beth [00:08:34]:

And so as we go into what happened in Q4, I think it’s great to lay the foundation for 2023 and talk about what happened throughout the year, and then we can talk about how we closed out, but just give us a zoomed out view of what took place. We talked about a little bit about how we started off the year predicting recessions, geopolitical uncertainty, consumer uncertainty, high interest rates. I don’t know. We’re here in 2024, and it seems very similar. But you let me know what happened last year and what we’re missing here. 

Matt [00:09:02]:

2023 is kind of a wild year, right? Yes. I think you set the stage well. I feel like everyone was predicting that we’re going to a recession. Markets were going to be horrible. Well, you look back at the end of the year, right, and stock markets were up over 20% depending on exactly how you measure them. Bond markets were up 5% to 7% depending on exactly how you measure them. And a lot of things happened. So I think there was four interest rate increases throughout the year of 25 basis points spread out. There was a pause somewhere after the first three, maybe we had failing banks at one point. Silicon Valley bank went down, First Republic went down, war. You’re talking about geopolitical events. It was kind of a crazy year. It felt like until the fourth quarter, with all that, the markets were a little bit choppy. I think that if you looked at a graph, they probably went up a little bit, stayed flat, but bounced around, and then really made most of that progress in the fourth quarter. So like Lindsey mentioned earlier, the overarching lesson, I think, as an investor, is just that staying disciplined and trying to keep your head down and stay focused on the long term really paid off for people who were able to do it. 

Neela [00:10:04]:

I think it’s so interesting because we’re hearing all of these things that happened in 2023. We had rising interest rates, we had high inflation, we had geopolitical uncertainty, we had failing banks. And then it was a strong finish. It’s kind of crazy. And we talk about feelings. What lessons might we take, Lindsey, about the role of feelings as an investor and really using 2023 as a backdrop for that question? 

Lindsey [00:10:30]:

That is such a good question, and such a good example of when it pays off to be a disciplined investor. So, in 2022, assets were basically negative across the board, from US stocks to global stocks to US bonds to global bonds, and everything in between. And so it felt really scary going into 2023 as an investor, and it was hard for some people to stay on the path. But that’s exactly when it’s most important to stick to your investment plan, because as we saw throughout 2023, even though we did see some volatility over the first three quarters, the returns really came abruptly in the fourth quarter, and it would have been really tough to time when to get in to the market in order to capture those returns that we saw in the fourth quarter. So it’s a really good lesson in not making emotional decisions to get out of the market after a tough year like 2022, and a really good lesson in not trying to pick the right moment to invest, because it would have been really tough to predict that we would have had such a strong quarter in the fourth quarter. 

Mary Beth [00:11:58]:

So in terms of not predicting, how do you suggest people deal with the feelings, though? Because there is still the urge and there’s still the fear. We could say, stay the course. But what can investors do when they are feeling that anxiety? 

Lindsey [00:12:11]:

Reach out to their financial advisors? No, but in all seriousness, really focus on the things that you can control and your long-term plan and goals. Your investment plan should be really focused on your shorter- and longer-term goals, whether you’re doing it by yourself or working with an advisor, and really knowing and trusting historical data and the way that markets work, and the fact that you have the right amount based on your goals in cash, and in shorter term instruments like bonds, and then in longer term instruments like stocks. So really knowing that you have a plan in place and trusting it, and knowing that you can’t control the ups and downs of the markets, and that’s really what you’re compensated for at the end of the day, is taking on that volatility and risk of investing. 

Neela [00:13:11]:

And, Matt, as you think about the role that the media plays in terms of investors and how they might be able to tune out the noise, what they should pay attention to. Read all kinds of statistics about where people are getting their financial information from. I think, like, TikTok is a really big one at this point. So how do you advise people to reconcile what they might be seeing in the news, in the media, in the influencer space, from good financial planning? 

Matt [00:13:43]:

That’s a really good question. I don’t know that I have a great answer for it. To be honest with you. I don’t want to get started on a rant about the media, especially the coverage of. 

Mary Beth [00:13:52]:

I was like, Neela’s provoking Matt. She’s like, poking. 

Neela [00:13:57]:

Is that a leading question, your honor. 

Matt [00:13:58]:

No, I’m not like a big TikToker. Full disclosure. So I’ve never tweeted, but…

Neela [00:14:06]:

Matt is a millennial, I just want everybody to know that Matt is a millennial. 

Mary Beth [00:14:09]:

Matt is a millennial. 

Neela [00:14:10]:


Matt [00:14:10]:

It’s crazy, right? I mean, things like McDonald’s meal prices going viral, and that has a lot of weight. It swings people’s opinions about how things are. And there are real numbers and facts out there that we can look at. We know inflation is down. It’s down to actually a reasonable level. But I don’t know. It’s a great question. I think it’s a huge problem, actually for our country and society in general, that you can have something go viral and be loosely based on a fact, or maybe it is a fact, but it’s one little tiny data point. And there can be a whole slew of other facts and data points that aren’t as interesting or don’t go viral or whatever it might be, and that kind of gets lost in the wash. So if I had to give somebody advice on the topic, I don’t know that I’m an expert, but pick your sources and make sure you’re trying to weigh things. Is it just something you saw on Instagram or is it an article from an academic? I mean, maybe those two things shouldn’t carry the same weight, at least when it comes to investments or the way you’re thinking about your financial future.

Mary Beth [00:15:12]:

Solid advice.

Neela [00:15:13]:

Very good answer. Yeah, I’ll take it. 

Mary Beth [00:15:16]:

So either one of you could answer this question. One of the things that happened in 2023 is we saw continued criticism around values aligned or ESG investing. And I know we’ve spoken about this at Abacus. We’ve talked about it, but give us a little bit of the landscape of what’s been going on and why it’s important to address. 

Lindsey [00:15:33]:

Yeah. So there are basically two camps when it comes to the criticisms of values aligned investing. There are people who say, hey, this isn’t going far enough and making a big enough difference, and these investments are basically greenwashing. And then the other end of the spectrum says that there’s no way to make sound investments and you’re giving something up in terms of returns by aligning your investments with your values. So we have a really broad spectrum of criticisms and those are kind of the two ends. And in terms of the greenwashing idea, there are a lot of strategies out there who have just jumped on the bandwagon as they’ve seen more assets flow into the environmentally and socially responsible investing space, and slapping an ESG or values aligned label onto a fund, that’s not actually pushing the needle on any of the issues. And so that’s why it’s really important for investors to either do their own due diligence or work with an advisor who is really dedicated to making sure that the underlying investments and investment managers are doing what they say they’re doing from a values aligned standpoint. And then if we swing it to the other side of the spectrum where people say, hey, you’re giving up returns, this doesn’t belong on a 401K platform. There are some funds that are charging a lot higher fees for values aligned investing, but that is very similar to a lot of non-values aligned funds as well. There are a ton of funds out there who are charging you over 1% to pick 30 stocks that are going to outperform. It doesn’t really matter whether that’s values aligned or not. It’s, in our opinion, not a great strategy, and you’re probably not getting what you’re paying for there. So just like you have to be discerning when you’re choosing non-values aligned funds, you really have to be discerning in terms of the financial strategy behind these values aligned funds you’re investing in, just like you would any other time as well. And so, again, that’s why it’s really important to do due diligence or work with an advisor who’s really focused on broad diversification and lower costs and kind of the key tenets of strong investment philosophy, at least in our opinion. 

Neela [00:18:19]:

I think that’s really sound advice, because at the end of the day, there’s always going to be funds that either promise to do something that they have no evidence that they will be able to deliver on, funds that are happy to charge you way more than you would need to get into a similar strategy. And so whether you’re looking at values aligned investing or non-values aligned investing, I think what you’re pointing out is do your due diligence, look under the hood, see what is actually happening, and see if it all really matches, and see if it meets your long term investment goals and checks the broad tenets that we tend to believe in in terms of what are the things that you can control and what can’t you. 

Lindsey [00:19:00]:

Exactly. And in terms of the live data that we have of the values aligned funds that follow our investment philosophy, there are shorter term deviations, either positive or negative, from a non-values aligned strategy. But when we look over a longer period of time, what we see is that historically we’ve seen very similar long-term performance for values-aligned and non-values aligned funds, as long as they’re constructed well from a financial standpoint. 

Mary Beth [00:19:37]:

Going back to the geopolitical tensions that we’ve experienced in 2023 and that we continue to experience in 2024. So we have the enduring conflict in Ukraine, we have heightened tensions, which might be cooling a bit between, US and China. There are a lot of headlines that are consistently coming up about these things showing up in the Wall Street Journal. Why should investors care about these? And how are markets generally responding? I think those are two interesting things from individual investor response and what we’re hearing maybe from interest in outcry and then what markets are actually doing. Can either of you speak to that? Because I think there’s a lot in the works, but maybe people to understand if it impacts markets in the long run. 

Lindsey [00:20:16]:

Yeah, I think historically, if you look at market returns through different times that have been turbulent in terms of wars and conflicts, what we see is a mixed bag in terms of returns. And it’s really hard to show exactly what affects markets at any given time because, as you mentioned, there are so many things going on around the world at any given time. And so, really, as an individual investor, markets through last year, you probably wouldn’t have predicted with all of the headlines that 2023 would have been a really great year for investors, even though it was a really tough year to see with all of the conflicts going on around the world. And yet it was. And there are businesses in the business of making money, no matter what’s happening around the world. And if there’s supply chain issues because of a conflict in a certain area, businesses are going to pivot and go a different direction. And so as long-term investors, even though it feels like really horrible things to see as an individual, as an investor, it’s really important to stay focused again on the long term. 

Neela [00:21:49]:

It’s like the classic adage of don’t confuse correlation with causation. Just because those events are happening and the market does something, it doesn’t necessarily mean that one influenced the other, even if they happen to coincide. 

Lindsey [00:22:05]:

Absolutely. Yeah. Matt, I don’t know if you have a better answer to that. 

Matt [00:22:10]:

No, I thought that was a really good answer. I think the one thing maybe worth adding is just that, I think as you see more and more, any type of geopolitical event, you tend to see more volatility. So you’re going to see stocks prices, for example, swing more either up or down. And a lot of that just has to do with the fact that you can think of the market as having like a set expectation. And so the more of these events that are happening, the more chances there are for that expectation to be off. And when that expectation is off, you’re going to see bigger swings in the market, either positive or negative. So I feel like when there’s a lot going on geopolitically, there’s just more opportunity for these swings. But to Lindsey’s point, are they going to be positive or negative in the short to medium term? It could go either way. Right. But I do think that you tend to see a little bit more, I keep saying volatility and I mean that markets are going to be swinging around a little bit more. 

Neela [00:23:05]:

Which goes back to something you’ve both said over and over in a good way, is that investing is a long term endeavor. And that part of the reason that you are going to make more money than, say, investing in just cash is because you’re going to cruise your way through the bumps along the way. There’s going to be highs, there’s going to be lows. You’re not going to be able to necessarily predict where things are going. But over the long term, as an investor, you should be rewarded. 

Mary Beth [00:23:32]:

So one of the things we didn’t hit on, I know we talked about 2023 heading into 2024. We are heading into an election year. Tell us a bit about election years and what can investors expect? What should investors do? What do we know historically about election years besides putting on your headphones and signing off on the news and the media for the next twelve months and blocking your cell phone number? 

Matt [00:23:52]:

Well, I think we’re going to sound kind of like a broken record here. So there’s been a bunch of studies done. You can kind of look back over time. Red, blue, conservative, liberal, doesn’t tend to matter. You see markets kind of go in both directions for either side independently. So it may be kind of piggybacking on what I just said. I think there is an opportunity for some more volatility, more bouncing around in the markets. But overall, who ends up sitting in the Oval office doesn’t seem to have a big impact really on the short, medium or long term. I think for how markets perform when. 

Mary Beth [00:24:25]:

So when the client calls and they’re like, so and so got elected. I want my money out of the market. You’re saying what? 

Lindsey [00:24:30]:

Yeah. You’re not investing in this person who got elected. You’re investing in a very diversified portfolio of companies that are going to continue operating in a similar way. Whether one person gets elected or the other, it can feel really emotional and connected, and it’s really not at the end of the day. 

Mary Beth [00:24:55]:

Is there anything going into this new year that investors should know that we haven’t asked about, that we haven’t hit on? We feel like broken records. I know Neela and I do as well on this podcast in terms of staying the course, set it and forget it being a little bit less emotional in terms of the swings with volatility. But is there anything investors should know or be aware of? 

Lindsey [00:25:17]:

I can’t really think of anything else.

Neela [00:25:21]:

It reminds me of talking to a client where he’ll call sometimes and he’ll say, I know exactly what you’re going to say, and I need you to say it to me. And it’s kind of the same thing where your investment approach doesn’t need to be the most interesting on the planet, but it does need to be effective in terms of meeting your financial goals. We oftentimes, we spend so much time, how do we optimize that last 5%? But if you can have a strong investment plan and stick to it, you’ve done a lot of the work. 

Lindsey [00:25:54]:


Matt [00:25:55]:

Look, it is an election year, and I think no matter where you sit on the spectrum, there’s going to be a lot of feelings. And for whatever reason, it does seem to be that when these things are popping up, a lot of people, or maybe it’s just because we’re financial advisors, but a lot of people go right to their money. Right. And their assets and what they have and what does it mean for it? And maybe doesn’t have anything to do with our, our jobs as CIOs, but just as advisors, I think it’s super helpful to sit down and just go back over the plan. I think that’s very reassuring. Typically for a client to put things into perspective, like, yeah, this is happening kind of here and now, but I do have this long-term plan. If I stick to it, it looks good, hopefully. And I think that kind of tends to help almost just get out of the mindset of what’s happening right now in that panicky space and into, I do have a plan and I can’t control the stuff that’s happening right now, but I can’t control some of the things that are happening in that plan on the longer term. So I think that tends to help. 

Mary Beth [00:26:48]:

Yeah, perfect. 

Lindsey [00:26:50]:

And a reminder about the fact that whether it’s a TikToker or a news outlet, all of those headlines, those people are in the business of getting clicks. And so everything’s going to be sensationalized. And so no matter the source, it’s really important to remember the incentives of the outlet or the author or the creator and really think like, hey, do these people have my best long term interest in mind when they’re writing these articles or putting this video up? Maybe not.

Neela [00:27:31]:

It’s a great point. So as we Matt, let’s kick this over to you as we look ahead to 2024, what is the investment landscape starting to shake up to be? And any suggestions that you have for our investors who are listening today? 

Matt [00:27:48]:

It’s a great question. And if I knew where the market was headed, I’d probably be a bazillionaire and not working here at Abacus actually.

Neela [00:27:57]:

And wouldn’t be joining us on this podcast is what you’re actually saying. 

Matt [00:28:02]:

Talked a little bit about 2023 and expectations from ‘22 heading into ‘23. And I don’t think that this year would be any different in our ability to kind of predict or project what’s going to happen relative to how things look today. So the best advice I could give, or the probably most accurate comment I can make is we don’t know what’s going to happen. And so, like Lindsey pointed out, ya know, stay focused on the things that you can control. And annual market returns just simply aren’t one of them so, you know, we expect over a long period of time to get a premium from investing in stocks. Right. And other asset classes also. But that’s over a long period of time. As planners, we look at your lifetime long, long periods of time. Any one given year, markets could be down 50%, they could be up 50%, could be more than that, could be less than that, and who knows? So stay focused on the stuff that you can control, like that plan things like your spending, being disciplined about your investments and staying the course. I think that’s probably your best course of action. 

Mary Beth [00:29:04]:

Good point. All right, Matt and Lindsey, thank you for being here. 

Neela [00:29:06]:

Thanks so much.

Lindsey [00:29:07]:

Thanks for having us. 

Mary Beth [00:29:11]:

Financial knowledge is for everyone. If you enjoyed today’s episode of If Money Were Easy and you’re looking for more tools and resources to expand what’s possible with your money, head to Abacus Wealth Partners elearning platform offering a variety of courses to empower you in your financial life. 

Mary Beth [00:29:54]:

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