Wealth and Shame: The Discomfort of Having Money

Mary Beth [00:00:00]:

Hey there. Welcome to the if Money Were Easy podcast, the show where we teach you how to expand what’s possible with your money. We’re your hosts, Mary Beth Dorjahan and Neela Hummel, certified financial planners & Co CEOs of Abacus Wealth Partners. Today on the show, we are talking about wealth shame.

Neela [00:00:21]:

Ooh, what a meaty topic.

Mary Beth [00:00:24]:

Shame, shame.

Neela [00:00:25]:

What is wealth shame, Mary Beth?

Mary Beth [00:00:28]:

So wealth shame is the guilt or embarrassment or discomfort that people have about their financial situation. So it could be either having too much money or having too little money or somewhere in the between. But it’s basically the shame discomfort around. Like, you can’t use shame in the description of shame, but it’s the discomfort that people have around their financial situation. So I always telling my kids, don’t use the word in the definition.

Neela [00:00:54]:

In the definition. That’s good. There’s gotta be. I think there’s a term for that. But I had dinner with a girlfriend the other day, and she’s also a listener. Shout out to Karina. And she was talking about some of the topics that we covered and that there are window topics and there are door topics. Like a door topic, meaning something that, like, you personally can experience, and then also like a window topic where you’re kind of looking in on somebody else who’s in a very different situation.

Mary Beth [00:01:21]:

Yeah.

Neela [00:01:22]:

And I think this topic in particular is a good window topic for a lot of people because I think it’s a totally different world. And I think it’s a totally different world, whether you’re on the side of feeling shame for not having enough or not making enough or not feeling enough. Also on the other side of feeling like you have so much but feeling uncomfortable about that.

Mary Beth [00:01:45]:

Yeah, I think you’re right. Definitely window topic. I think a lot of people, you know, based on the stats, I don’t have them off the top of my head, but I just wrote an article recently. You know, the majority of people have some sort of financial stress. Right. They’re stressed around their money. And stress very easily links to shame. Right.

Mary Beth [00:02:01]:

Whether it’s debt, whether it’s having more, whether it’s guilt about not giving back enough. There’s usually some sort of stress that’s happening across the financial spectrum.

Neela [00:02:09]:

Right. It’s rare to find somebody who’s like, no, no, everything’s perfect for me financially.

Mary Beth [00:02:14]:

Yes, exactly. Except for us.

Neela [00:02:16]:

Except for us. We’ve got everything figured out. Also not, of course, but we talk a lot about the intersection of money and psychology. And, you know, just recognizing that, like Nobody ever feels like they’ve got it all together all the time.

Mary Beth [00:02:29]:

Yeah. And I think in general, like wealth, if you look at societal expectations, wealth is very often tied to our identities and our self worth, especially depending on the groups that you find yourself socializing in. So sometimes it might be that maybe you know that you have the most privilege and wealth in the group, or maybe you have the least wealth in the group, or maybe you’re all the same socioeconomic standards. But there’s usually some sort of even like subconscious sizing up that I think happens when you are in a group of peers. You know, things come up in conversation. You can start to figure out, like, where do you place in that group?

Neela [00:03:06]:

And I mean, we as human beings play the comparison game. Whether intentionally or not. We love a good top 10 list, we love a good ranking. And even if we don’t feel like that’s necessarily what governs our decisions, everybody’s kind of curious, like, where do I stack up? And I think it’s also like everybody wants some degree of community. And so the further you are from what is considered normal or average, I think that can also feel very isolating and can be just hard to accept.

Mary Beth [00:03:37]:

It’s the element of belonging. We all want to belong and so money does happen to be a portion of that belonging.

Neela [00:03:43]:

So as financial planners, I feel like professionally, like, I certainly see a lot more situations of people who have wealth and feel ashamed about that wealth, whether it’s inherited money, whether they did it through hard work and perseverance and started a business, what have you. I think one of the reasons that this topic in particular, having quote, unquote too much or having plenty, is so hard to talk about for many people and how they end up really confiding in their financial planner because it’s already hard to talk about money. But then also I feel like everybody feels like if you have enough money, your life is just better and you’ve got it all figured out and like you are not allowed to have problems because you have enough money.

Mary Beth [00:04:32]:

Yes.

Neela [00:04:33]:

And I think that’s one of the saddest things, the hardest things of just because somebody has money, like they’re still a human being and they have feelings and there’s like a whole host of complications that can come from having a lot of money. And I like, if you are in that position, just know you’re okay. Yes. You don’t have to worry about certain things. And I’m not saying that, you know, this is not like a oh, woe is you, but Also, like, you are allowed to have problems, you are allowed to have other issues. And also just recognizing that there’s other pieces that can pop up when you are in a position of financial privilege.

Mary Beth [00:05:10]:

With the financial privilege, let’s tackling like that road for a moment. Do you feel like there’s a level of imposter syndrome? Or does the shame come from this idea of, oh, society and people expect me to have it all together, I shouldn’t feel this way? What do you see that usually? Like, where does the shame stem from? Is it like family issues? Is it shame around the actual wealth itself? Is it shame around being a human and having issues that society says that we shouldn’t have?

Neela [00:05:39]:

Right. I mean, I think it’s all of the above. We talk about everybody’s got their own money story. Everybody received messages around money growing up. And I think that feeds into this idea of wealth shame. And I think everybody. You know, many people have heard the term champagne problems, right? Where it’s like, there’s problems and there’s champagne problems. Like, oh, things are so hard, but they’re not in the grand scheme of things, they’re not big.

Neela [00:06:01]:

And yet there are so many things that pop up, right? You can have a ton of money and still have a diagnosed medical illness that is incurable. No amount of money can solve that. No amount of money can solve loneliness. The human need you mentioned belonging, like that is the true human need. And the wealth piece can get in the way of that because money can change relationships. And so I think sometimes, you know, people can feel that they’re either not going to be accepted in their community, that their community will shift with the knowledge that they have more. And then I think also we can be our own worst enemies of being just hard on ourselves. Like, if you inherit money, you’re like, I don’t deserve this.

Neela [00:06:43]:

I haven’t earned this. This isn’t mine. Why did I get this? And friends and family, like, why did they not? This guilt, this why me feeling that’s hard.

Mary Beth [00:06:54]:

That is hard. With the shame, what do you see as the, like, emotional and like psychological toll that it takes on people?

Neela [00:07:02]:

There is a guardedness that can pop up, almost like a default privacy of thinking through how will this situation be interpreted? I think just the, like, the having to double check decisions or comments I think can be emotionally taxing. I almost think there’s like two different paths. There’s like when your wealth is known, you had a very public business exit or a very, you know, some sort of a public acknowledgment where people really understand that you are in a very privileged position. And then there’s this kind of unknown element. Actually, the New Yorker did this great article about these different New York people who were getting a lot of financial support from their parents. Either, you know, some smaller amount or just massive amounts, as in like a multimillion dollar penthouse to live in. And so this idea of people who maybe are hanging out with a bunch of people who are being swallowed by student loans and there’s like eight people living in a three bedroom place, they’re struggling musicians, and then you’re like in a four bedroom multimillion dollar apartment. That feels very isolating because it’s like you can’t relate at the same level.

Neela [00:08:14]:

And there’s kind of again, belonging, community. It’s, it’s easier when you’re kind of all in it together. But there can be this bifurcation of I am different. And that’s hard. I’m not part of the group.

Mary Beth [00:08:27]:

I’ve seen it show up also, especially in those like those public situations where there’s like this guilt attached to it as well. And almost like this obligatory overspending as well. Because you know that they know that you are in this privileged position and so therefore you might start making financial choices and expenditures that you wouldn’t otherwise for out of guilt. Right. Knowing that you’re the most privileged in the group, so therefore you’re paying for things that maybe you shouldn’t.

Neela [00:08:57]:

Our old friend. The should.

Mary Beth [00:08:58]:

The should, exactly. So I think that guilt shows up on that side as well, on the public side. But I think what you mentioned about like just like this idea of this, this avoidance, this closed offness, like going back to this belonging, like when you do have this wealth, one, even if it is public, people don’t understand what’s behind the scenes, right. They don’t understand the complexities involved or the nuances of what actually went into the business sale or what, you know, what the physical mental health situations are, family situations. And so I think there’s, there’s that idea of it and then there’s also just the loneliness. The loneliness comes from it. Kind of like being an only, right? Feeling like you’re an only. And even in a, I think a sea of people who do have wealth, I think it’s still a loneliness epidemic also with those who have money.

Mary Beth [00:09:45]:

I think the loneliness epidemic hits everybody. And you often see like it’s portrayed all over the, like not the media, but like, I mean, how many TV shows or like Movies are created about people who have tons of wealth but are isolated or lonely or, you know, could be standing in the middle of a 200 person party but feeling like they’re alone. Right. I think some of those things that’s traumatized, but I think that does happen, you know, more often than we talk about.

Neela [00:10:10]:

I totally agree. And going back to the loneliness, it is easy to shut yourself off out of fear that nobody’s gonna get it. They’re not gonna maybe respect my problems. I think a fear of feeling used for your wealth is a big one, especially when it’s publicly known. Just this idea of like, do they like me or do they like the fact that like anytime we go out to a meal, I pick it up.

Mary Beth [00:10:34]:

Right.

Neela [00:10:35]:

And I think that expectation is really actually insidious and I think it impacts everyone. Like, I think I would say you never, never assume that you know, somebody’s financial situation. You only see a sliver, you only see something on the outside. But like you alluded to, there’s all kinds of things that happen behind the scenes. And like life is like never easy for anybody. Everybody’s got issues. You know, maybe that wealth comes with tons of familial strings. Like your parents are going to threaten to cut you off if you don’t end up with somebody that they approve of or if you don’t pursue a career that is something that they pick or, you know, the wealth as a tool that also has caused a lot of suffering.

Neela [00:11:16]:

People with access to a lot of money and you see addictions, you see other issues of just. It can cause pain too.

Mary Beth [00:11:24]:

Yeah. Again, we’re talking about this because it’s often overlooked. Right. People put those with wealth are on a pedestal. But when you do take a closer look upon further examination, you pull back the layers and you know, again, there’s a human being underneath wealth or lack of wealth for all of us. We are all humans and we all have essential human needs. But when it comes down to those core elements, it’s looking and figuring out what do I truly need here, how do I find it? And like, how do I overcome these barriers that I’m facing, Like this money story that I have or the shame that I’m feeling? Am I in the right environment? You know, do I want control of my life and do I make certain changes? Then do I walk away from the wealth to live the life that I want? And you know, there’s some really tough and difficult things that people have to go up against to have their personal choice or personal space.

Neela [00:12:14]:

So as with any shame, and as human beings, shame is like one of the most difficult things I think, for us to just feel like it’s a really. I mean, Brene Brown talks a lot, right? Just shame.

Mary Beth [00:12:26]:

Like, oh, just Google Brene Brown and shame. We don’t need to give you any.

Neela [00:12:30]:

Sources, but it is so, so painful. It is one of the deepest, most painful emotions human beings can experience. So when it comes to an issue like this, how do you counsel people in what to do about it?

Mary Beth [00:12:44]:

I think it starts with the self reflection, right? So it’s. You have to do the inner work. It’s about identifying the money stories. So if it’s an inheritance that you received, is it, I don’t deserve this, or is it something that you happen to work hard for? You have success now, but you feel like you’re being taken advantage of or they don’t truly like me for me, is it a belonging? Like, you have to figure out what are those stories or scripts that you have going in your head and how are they playing out in your life and are they true? Is that an accurate assessment of what is going on? If yes, what changes can you make? And if no, if perhaps, like, they’re just stories, what kind of help can you get to reframe and like, work through those things for yourself?

Neela [00:13:27]:

So first, looking inward, it’s funny because it’s like a lot of the insecurities can come from external ideas or external people, et cetera. But like, you gotta start here and like, where those messages come from. Why do I think this. The phrase that is always helpful for me is the story I’m telling myself is X. And then I feel like I can say whatever it is because then it’s like, oh, it is a story like that doesn’t make it true, but that is the story that I’m playing in my head. And is that real?

Mary Beth [00:13:58]:

Yes. Another Brene Brown shout out. Cause that’s why I learned that from her as well.

Neela [00:14:01]:

She’s the guru, so great.

Mary Beth [00:14:02]:

But yeah, I think the story I’m telling myself is a great prompt. What is that story? And the thing when it comes to wealth shame and just financial stress and financial mindset in general, it takes a long time to get ourselves into this, like, position of shame and the guilt, like, it, it comes on over time. It’s not like you wake up one day and you just feel terrible about it, right? It’s something. It’s like lessons and things that become ingrained. And so when you do start to do that inner Reflection and work, recognizing that it’s not going to go away overnight either. If it took you years to kind of get into this situation, it’s probably going to take you years of work to get back out of it, to figure out the tools and like, intentional. Right. A lot of times we end up in these, these subconscious states or we end up with a shame because of societal expectations and whatever, like, you know, box that we’ve been put in and the stories that we’ve been telling ourselves.

Mary Beth [00:14:49]:

But we don’t. Aren’t even aware that we’re on that path. Right. You’re not aware that you’re on this path to shame of why it’s happening. You just know you don’t feel great about it. But when you wake up and realize, okay, this is shame, like, what is it about? And then you start to do the work well, then you have to intentionally figure out the tools and practice them to undo those things that will continue to creep up from a subconscious state.

Neela [00:15:08]:

Of mind, unpacking all those layers. Because, like, you’re right, it. It compounds over time. It kind of takes on a life of its own. And so as you start kind of digging in, you’re. It’s like, okay, well, how do I unpack this piece? Ooh. And then that goes deeper here and it’s. It’s the reverse Shrek onion layer deal.

Neela [00:15:25]:

Right? You’re working your way through. And what is the core feeling and how to work through that?

Mary Beth [00:15:30]:

Yeah, I’d say you’re going to start doing that work, and then the thing that comes next is developing financial confidence. So understanding. So it’s, it’s the money that you, that you’ve either inherited, the money that you don’t have, perhaps, or the money that you have worked really hard that you’ve earned, that you’re feeling guilty about, but developing financial confidence in terms of what does being good with money look like to you? What does being impactful with your money look like to you? You know, if you let go of society’s constraints and their messages, what would you do with this money that would light you up? And so I think it’s when you detach from the societal expectations and the emotions, like, or the negative emotions, like, what does light you up, right? Like, what are the things that are going to give you that confidence? And we see it a lot with our clients. They start, especially when it comes to wealth, like, they start on a learning journey. They go down a path to explore of, like, how to not only invest, but how to be impactful ways, give values, aligned, invest. I mean, that’s all that we do here. And I think that really helps to counteract the shame because then there’s a purpose behind what they’re doing and they’re feeling more in control of the situation.

Neela [00:16:33]:

The path is almost, you know, shame to acceptance, to power and impact and power in that. Like, okay, then how do I leverage this? Like you’re saying, in a way that is really authentic to me. And we, you know, we ended up working with particularly a lot of inheritors who come into money who don’t want to be associated with that wealth. They’re like, I want to live off my five figure a year salary, but I’ve got this kind of big hairy beast over here. And then it’s like, okay, what if we start giving that money away or investing in a way that feels really good to you? You’re really interested in clean water. Let’s see how you could really move the needle on a cause like that. But this money is something that you can be a really powerful steward of in a way that feels good.

Mary Beth [00:17:18]:

Yeah, I think that’s absolutely it. So, you know, working with an advisor, but you’re not just going to go in like 0 to 100. But that’s why it’s called a learning journey. You’re going to learn along the way. You’re going to learn which questions to ask. You’re going to learn how to ask the hard questions. You’ll learn how to have difficult conversations. You’ll learn how to advocate for what you want.

Mary Beth [00:17:34]:

And if you need to make changes to the portfolio or to your strategy because it’s not in line with what you’re looking for, you’ll learn how to advocate for yourself in those spaces. And if you’re not comfortable, I mean, the goal is to figure out, like, find the spaces that you are comfortable in and those that you trust. Right. I think the biggest thing is with wealth too. It can feel vulnerable and like it’s easy to be taken advantage of. So oftentimes people defer. You defer to being told what to do. You defer to those who might know more than you and making sure that you are surrounded by professionals that you, you trust who truly are aligned and want to support the vision that you have for yourself and for your wealth.

Neela [00:18:11]:

You know, just thinking back, I grew up in a very wealthy family. My family’s financial situation dramatically shifted. But for the first decade of my life, I felt that, honestly, like pressure and pain of everybody kind of knowing my business and how Deeply uncomfortable that was. And I still, even though in a very different situation than I grew up in, I had to really unlearn a lot of defensive mechanisms that I put in place as a little girl of like, oh, wait, does this person actually want to hang out with me? Or do they want to just kind of like be in this house or come because I have all the best snacks, Whatever it is as a kid, you know, obviously it’s not an accident that I ended up in finance with all of the money issues that happened growing up, but just kind of going on a journey of trust, of trusting yourself, of experimenting with what feels good in terms of what you communicate, how you communicate, and. And then realizing really that, like, money can be just such a powerful tool when used properly and that you also don’t have to do it alone. And you don’t have to do it alone. Like you said, like, you should have a professional team that can help identify holes or gaps and just make sure that you’re protected and also optimized. And it also means not doing it alone with friends and people in your community and that there are ways that you can start sharing in a way that feels authentic, that can just foster a better sense of belonging.

Mary Beth [00:19:40]:

What was that learning journey like for you? I mean, because obviously at 10 you have those defense mechanisms in place, but you don’t necessarily know they’re there. So what point in time did you realize they were there and then start to unpack?

Neela [00:19:53]:

Two years ago, was it yesterday?

Mary Beth [00:19:56]:

Yesterday? Yesterday.

Neela [00:19:58]:

Today is the day. I mean, you know this too. Again, we all have our own money stories, but because of not only having the experience of wealth, but then also very much feeling the dramatic shift all before the age of 18 led to, I’m gonna go real psychological, some degree of parentification and kind of a growing up very quickly. And also this idea of like, I can rely on myself and I need to make sure that, like, I can take care of things. And so I think I have been starting to let my own guard down. And again, totally different sit. But those habits that I developed as like a way to protect 10 year old Nila.

Mary Beth [00:20:38]:

Yeah.

Neela [00:20:38]:

Are still coming down and still working through it and being like, I don’t want to be a burden on anybody else and so I don’t want to talk about this. And so it’s safer to talk about other people’s issues. And so, yeah, I feel like I started really recognizing some of the coping mechanisms as coping mechanisms literally years ago. Just a few years ago.

Mary Beth [00:20:58]:

Yeah, like we said, it’s it’s work. Right. It’s years of work to continue. And it’s. It’s a little bit like whack a mole. Right. They pop back. You think you haven’t fixed, and they pop back up and you’re like, what’s happening here? Like, oh, there’s that again.

Mary Beth [00:21:09]:

Thank you for sharing.

Neela [00:21:10]:

Yeah, it’s all messy. But again, I had very public wealth, and then that wealth went away, and people still thought there was public wealth.

Mary Beth [00:21:20]:

They didn’t know.

Neela [00:21:21]:

Right.

Mary Beth [00:21:21]:

Nobody knew what happened.

Neela [00:21:22]:

Nobody knew.

Mary Beth [00:21:23]:

You don’t know what happens behind the scenes. I don’t know.

Neela [00:21:25]:

And so even now, I’m like, oh, like, my husband and I were able to buy a house. We did that all by ourselves. But there is an expectation that, like, oh, you got help from your family. Which is where I’m like the fiercest advocate of. You never know what is going on behind the doors. In anybody’s financial situation. Do not assume anything, ever.

Mary Beth [00:21:46]:

Even financial planners.

Neela [00:21:47]:

Even financial planners.

Mary Beth [00:21:48]:

We also play the game of assuming what’s happening as we observe financial habits. But we don’t. We don’t know. Right. We don’t know until somebody becomes a client. And then you, you know, you see the full story and the landscape, and even then, we still don’t know. We see the numbers, but you don’t necessarily figure out the emotions and what’s happening. Fears, those don’t come up until later on.

Mary Beth [00:22:08]:

Nobody’s coming into our offices and laying it all out on day one.

Neela [00:22:11]:

That’s at least three layers deep. You know, I mean, it is the human psyche and the psyche intersecting with money. I mean, you literally just see the tip of the iceberg.

Mary Beth [00:22:21]:

Yeah. So I think when you. When we’re talking about wealth shame, again, this can go for having excess wealth, I guess, air quotes, or, you know, feeling like you don’t have enough. But it’s, you know, the steps for cut, for overcoming it. This is very simplified, but reframing your money story, developing the financial confidence. So starting your learning journey, practicing those hard conversations that we talked about. So again, advocating for yourself, finding yourself. There’s lots of money circles that exist out there, places that you can practice the conversations, learn from others.

Mary Beth [00:22:50]:

So practicing that transparency and healthy conversations around money, and then aligning your money with the purpose, aligning your wealth with that purpose, for impact that is based on your goals, your desires, your vision.

Neela [00:23:01]:

Right.

Mary Beth [00:23:01]:

It’s really important from this perspective, if you would like to overcome the wealth shame that you’re focused on your goals and your vision and not what society thinks you should do. When you do have wealth, there’s going to be a lot of people’s opinions on how you should allocate that wealth, and there’s going to be a lot of people who might have their hand out for certain things. And you have to be able to have those boundaries, know what’s true to you and align your money in that way. Because as soon as you start down the path of what other people think you should do, that shame’s gonna creep right back in totally.

Neela [00:23:30]:

As you get to almost that like, third piece of the pyramid of like, really being able to leverage your money in accordance with your values. You would also be shocked to find how much community there is there too. And you find other people within a similar value set. You might find people with similar backgrounds and that there is this feeling of like, I thought I was alone. And once you’re kind of at that level, then you also can find another degree of community, which is a really beautiful thing.

Mary Beth [00:23:57]:

Yeah. Do we miss anything?

Neela [00:23:58]:

I think those are the big ones.

Mary Beth [00:24:00]:

All right, thanks everyone. Hope this was helpful.

Neela [00:24:04]:

Thank you for joining us for another episode of if Money Were Easy. We hope you’re walking away with some fresh insights, maybe some inspiration and some ideas to apply to your finances, life, et cetera.

Mary Beth [00:24:16]:

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Neela [00:24:28]:

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Mary Beth [00:24:37]:

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Neela [00:24:52]:

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Neela [00:24:57]:

CFP Abacus Wealth Partners is an SEC registered Investment Advisor. SEC registration does not constitute an endorsement of Abacus Wealth Partners by the sec, nor does it indicate that Abacus Wealth Partners has attained a particular level of skill or ability. This material prepared by Abacus Wealth Partners is for informational purposes only. It is not intended to serve as a substitute for personalized investment advice or as a recommendation or solicitation of any particular security strategy or investment product. Opinions expressed by Abacus Wealth Partners are based on economic or market conditions at the time this material was written. Facts presented have been obtained from sources believed to be reliable. Abacus Wealth Partners, however, cannot guarantee the accuracy or completeness of such information, and certain information presented here may have been condensed or summarized from its original source. Abacus Wealth Partners does not provide tax or legal advice, and nothing contained in these materials should be taken as tax or legal advice.

Neela [00:25:53]:

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